To those of you sitting on the fence....

[Holdontoyourhat]

Hi HOTYH...ok..can you pls answer me one question....let's ASSUME that NO DNA whatsoever was found at the crime seen but everything else was as it is (RN, fibres etc )...would you still HONESTLY think that an intruder did it? if so-why?
If that would make you think RDI-then pls, I'd like to know why as well....

I've been a believer of IDI ever since the summer of 97 when they released the RN and published the Newsweek article on the subject. Prior to that I took little or no interest.

I've always believed there is a better candidate than JR or PR. Somebody who matches at least some of the published profile. Somebody who actually talks like that. Somebody with a history.

I would not have been too surprised if PR or JR were justifiably arrested and convicted, somewhere along the way. They weren't and instead we now have this DNA plus some linguists and handwriting analysts that say PR didn't write the note.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm siding with what prima facie says:

Deep furrow + petechial hemorrhaging = MURDER BY STRANGULATION.

Any other conclusion is frankly ridiculous. After we consider the 'totality' of evidence, the big picture, its still MURDER BY STRANGULATION. IOW, whoever did this is going to face murder charges because a strangulation weapon was constructed and there is evidence it was used for that purpose. Whether it be RDI or IDI, it is a MURDER BY STRANGULATION.

You can take that to the bank.

Aren't you forgetting the HOLE in her skull and the 8-inch fracture? That played a part in her death, I assure you. The coroner's report states COD as ligature strangulation in assciation with blunt force trauma to the skull. The strangulation may have killed her but so could the skull fracture. That still does not mean the strangulation was not staging, whereas the head bash was most likely NOT staging.

 

[IrishMist]

You mean, like someone from a SFF?

I don't give a lot of weight to the SFF theory. Why would the R's be targeted by a FF, be it big or small? The R's were big fish in a small pond, IMO. If anything, that line makes me lean more toward RDI. It sounds phony to me, which makes me question the veracity of the entire note.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Aren't you forgetting the HOLE in her skull and the 8-inch fracture? That played a part in her death, I assure you. The coroner's report states COD as ligature strangulation in assciation with blunt force trauma to the skull. The strangulation may have killed her but so could the skull fracture. That still does not mean the strangulation was not staging, whereas the head bash was most likely NOT staging.

OK you're the defense attorney for a man suspected of shooting another man. He owned the gun and witnesses saw him leveling the gun. Your client claims he was shooting something else when the man passed in front of the gun at that instant. Do you believe him and defend him anyway?

This is what you're asking me to believe.

There was a deep furrow and petechial hemorrhaging. JBR was murdered by strangulation. That was not staging. In the best RDI scenario, there may have been staging but the strangulation wasn't one of them. We know that because of the petechial hemorrhaging.

The idea that she was perceived for dead, or that the ligature around her neck was not 'intended' as a lethal threat to her, is the equivalent of your defendant's little story.

Just how much cr%& are you going to buy?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I don't give a lot of weight to the SFF theory. Why would the R's be targeted by a FF, be it big or small? The R's were big fish in a small pond, IMO. If anything, that line makes me lean more toward RDI. It sounds phony to me, which makes me question the veracity of the entire note.

Hey, you just set a requirement that an intruder had to be someone not missed on Christmas and prima facie meets that requirement. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to hear.

"It would also have to be someone that wouldn't be missed on Christmas Day/Night."

Prima facie says SFF, and foreign intruder wouldn't be missed on Christmas.

I think its important because Kaczynski's own family figured it out years later, and here we are 12 years later and nobody has come forward. If its an intruder then probably its a foreign intruder, as prima facie has been saying all along.

 

[IrishMist]

Hey, you just set a requirement that an intruder had to be someone not missed on Christmas and prima facie meets that requirement. Sorry if it wasn't what you wanted to hear.

"It would also have to be someone that wouldn't be missed on Christmas Day/Night."

Prima facie says SFF, and foreign intruder wouldn't be missed on Christmas.

I think its important because Kaczynski's own family figured it out years later, and here we are 12 years later and nobody has come forward. If its an intruder then probably its a foreign intruder, as prima facie has been saying all along.

A person that lives alone also may not be missed on Christmas.
A young person going to the local college that stayed there over break also may not be missed on Christmas.
Either of which is more likely in my opinion than a SFF.

Just because the writer claimed to be a rep of a SFF, it doesn't make it so.

As to what I may or may not want to hear, why don't you leave that up to me? I was answering the OP. While the question was limited to what ONE MAIN thing kept me from jumping off the fence, I found myself unable to limit it to just one thing. I set no requirements for anyone else, I was simply replying regarding some of the issues I have with the known evidence in this case, and part of why I sit on the fence.

 

[JMO8778]

People who LIVE in the house where the crime occurred certainly wouldn't be missed.Unless they,for starters,didn't show up the next day in MI,where they were scheduled to be.And so they then had to start somewhere...like with a fake 911 call.(even though there were multiple threats in the note,and yes,Patsy was pretty transparent throughout the whole call).

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Just because the writer claimed to be a rep of a SFF, it doesn't make it so.

Yeah but if later we find out it was, man thats nothing but crow for dinner every night for a long time.

 

[madeleine]

I've been a believer of IDI ever since the summer of 97 when they released the RN and published the Newsweek article on the subject. Prior to that I took little or no interest.

I've always believed there is a better candidate than JR or PR. Somebody who matches at least some of the published profile. Somebody who actually talks like that. Somebody with a history.

I would not have been too surprised if PR or JR were justifiably arrested and convicted, somewhere along the way. They weren't and instead we now have this DNA plus some linguists and handwriting analysts that say PR didn't write the note.

What profile?The one J.Ramsey made public?

 

[madeleine]

Depends on who you ask, KariKae. Many people have wondered if PR was not suffering from undiagnosed mental illness.

I agree.....ask all the wives/relatives who didn't know they spent an entire life next to a serial killer.IT HAPPENS.What's with all the "oh I know X or Y and no way did he do that!" That's BS.You never know.Sometimes people do things you can't imagine and you never would have thought of.It's human nature.It's been said that the most vicious serial killers had angelic faces.Doesn't this tell you anything.Maybe sometimes you think the person next to you is happy and content,that doesn't mean it's so,maybe you have no idea what's going on INSIDE and what that person is hiding.You just can't know and tell sometimes.

Moreover, I strongly urge you to examine the Jeffrey MacDonald case vis-a-vis this one. You might find it interesting. In fact, I'm sure you will.

Great idea.Loved the part when his own DNA testing slapped him and his team right back in the face!Same old,same old,blaming LE for messing up with the crime scene and pointing fingers at someone who claimed to have been at the crime scene,only their "JMK" was a female in this case.

 

[BBB167893]

People who LIVE in the house where the crime occurred certainly wouldn't be missed.Unless they,for starters,didn't show up the next day in MI,where they were scheduled to be.And so they then had to start somewhere...like with a fake 911 call.(even though there were multiple threats in the note,and yes,Patsy was pretty transparent throughout the whole call).

:clap: :clap:

 

[BBB167893]

What profile?The one J.Ramsey made public?

Yeah, I was just about to ask that question myself. Just which profile are we talking about here? Because the one madeleine's talking about wasn't the only one. Just off the top of my head, Roger DePue and Robert Ressler, independently of each other, both made profiles of the killer, and both matched up to ONE person: PR.

 

[BBB167893]

I would not have been too surprised if PR or JR were justifiably arrested and convicted, somewhere along the way.

No kidding?

handwriting analysts that say PR didn't write the note.

You must be reading different info than I am. Because I'm not aware of ANY analysis that said flat-out that she didn't write it. Quite the contrary, in fact.

 

[KariKae]

As a fence sitter, I lean more toward the RDI side, but I do so with much reservation.

On the RDI side - I think JBR was awake when she arrived home from the party. Every parent of a bed wetter knows you ALWAYS make your child go potty before going to bed, even if you have to wake them up to do it. I also do not think JR would carry 45 pounds of dead weight (pardon the pun) our of the car and up the stairs to her bedroom. This part of the story seems to have nothing to do with her death. So why on earth would they lie about it? Unless this is the time period she died and they didn't want her awake.

Also, going along with how heavy a sleeping child is to carry...Why would an intruder carry her down another flight of stairs to the basement. Especially when there are multiple doors through which he could escape.

On the IDI side again - I keep going back to the DNA. There are many cases in which the evidence seems to point one way and a person is convicted, only to have the convition overturned because the DNA doesn't match.

 

[slug]

i agree with you karikae my oldest child took ages to be dry at night and even if he fell asleep downstairs i would wake him to use the toilet before getting him to bed.
also most children after about 3 will wake up when you take them out of a car if they've fallen asleep. If she had stayed asleep i don't understand why they bothered changing her why not just put her to bed in her clothes if she was that deeply asleep.

 

[Sophie]

As a fence sitter, I lean more toward the RDI side, but I do so with much reservation.

On the RDI side - I think JBR was awake when she arrived home from the party. Every parent of a bed wetter knows you ALWAYS make your child go potty before going to bed, even if you have to wake them up to do it. I also do not think JR would carry 45 pounds of dead weight (pardon the pun) our of the car and up the stairs to her bedroom. This part of the story seems to have nothing to do with her death. So why on earth would they lie about it? Unless this is the time period she died and they didn't want her awake.

Also, going along with how heavy a sleeping child is to carry...Why would an intruder carry her down another flight of stairs to the basement. Especially when there are multiple doors through which he could escape.

On the IDI side again - I keep going back to the DNA. There are many cases in which the evidence seems to point one way and a person is convicted, only to have the convition overturned because the DNA doesn't match.

That is certainly true. For my part, I am convinced that DNA evidence, notably touch and LCN evidence, is currently freeing a number of people who are in fact guilty. I accept that DNA evidence is preventing some miscarriages of justice but I have absolutely no doubt that criminals are walking free because of the 'reasonable doubt' raised by unidentified, possibly innocent DNA. Actually, I fully expect the sorts of criminal trials we see in common law jurisdictions becoming extinct but that's a rant for another day.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

No kidding?



You must be reading different info than I am. Because I'm not aware of ANY analysis that said flat-out that she didn't write it. Quite the contrary, in fact.

Dusak Findings. "Richard Dusick (sic) of the U.S. Secret Service concluded that there was "no evidence to indicate that Patsy Ramsey executed any of the questioned material appearing on the Ransom Note." (SMF P 200; PSMF P 200.)" (Carnes 2003:26, note 14).

Now maybe you were saying Richard Dusak was only a Xerox machine techinician, right? Fits with RDI's impression of Beuf, Meyer, Smit, Lacy or any other person who was professionally associated with the case but did not kowtow to the regime.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

What profile?The one J.Ramsey made public?

Probably. The one RMN and Denver Post ran:

http://www.corpus-delicti.com/douglas_jbr.html

male
Triggering event
alcohol or drugs
women problems
established an alibi
obsessed with movies
turned to religion

 

[DeeDee249]

Yeah but if later we find out it was, man thats nothing but crow for dinner every night for a long time.

How typical of IDI to make that concept the issue, when the reality for most RDI would be relief. Relief that the perp was finally identified and relief that it wasn't the parents after all. This is, of course, based on it being the REAL killer and not one of the RST's fake ones (aka Karr)
I for one, would not mind eating that crow. But I doubt I'll be needing any recipes any time soon.
BTW, as far as this case is concerned, we ALL have a 50% chance of being right. Either one of the Rs did it or they didn't. It's called an opinion, and we are each entitled to have it. I can assure you none of us would make that same statement to you, if it is proved that one of the Rs were involved.

 

[JMO8778]

It works both ways though.The R's OWN handwriting analysts refused to rule Patsy out for that very reason...in case of a conviction or confession,THEY didn't want to be the ones eating crow!!