To those of you sitting on the fence....

[voynich]

I

I believe it came out on the scale as "indications did write."

Look, HOTYH, I realize you probably don't want to hear this, especially from me, but this is one instance where voynich and I are in full agreement: we believe what we see.

We do, I am open though that the author made a conscious attempt to imitate PR's handwriting. As I've said before, forgery is a common crime, and many famous forgeries involve paintings. But I'm open that PR wrote it.

I am not trained as a handwriting expert ---- how do you explain this?

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Patsy+Ramsey+as+RN+Author

No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

You call those explanations "wildcards," but again, that goes back to what I said about the difference between knowledge and wisdom. More specifically, we have PR on tape and transcribed as talking about the anti-anxiety drugs she was using later on (whether that was true at the time of the killing is an open question), so I'd say that could be corroborated.

OK I can work with this. If PR was taking anti-anxiety medication then that is corroboration for variation in the overall quality of her writing. PR taking anti-anxiety drugs would affect her handwriting in what way? Make it jittery, sloppy or smoother? Make more or fewer mistakes?

More to the point, it's established at this point that she could write left-handed (very possibly much better than she let on). Also, I would remind you that the "using both hands" idea was in my head before it became an issue, i.e., before you brought it up. It wasn't some "damage control idea whipped out of thin air." I got there completely on my own based on what I had in front of me.

If the question is you thinking of 'using both hands' came before I brought it up, thats OK I'm not running a race.

Example of 'damage control whipped out of thin air' is PR 'deliberately misspelling' advise. There's no corroboration for that. RDI didn't notice the 'advise' spelling issue. It took IDI to see that, and then RDI had a simple knee-jerk reaction to it.

It would've been better if RDI brought that up first, speaking of racing.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

We do, I am open though that the author made a conscious attempt to imitate PR's handwriting. As I've said before, forgery is a common crime, and many famous forgeries involve paintings. But I'm open that PR wrote it.

Not me, not for a split second.

PR gave too many samples as a suspect in this case to escape five document examiners. The ransom note is too long and her exemplars too numerous to evade a positive ID. Don't take my word for it, ask the BPD-hired document examiners. THey're the ones who saw first hand the originals or photographic representations. NOT faxes of scans passing thru the tabloids.

 

[voynich]

Not me, not for a split second.

PR gave too many samples as a suspect in this case to escape five document examiners. The ransom note is too long and her exemplars too numerous to evade a positive ID. Don't take my word for it, ask the BPD-hired document examiners. THey're the ones who saw first hand the originals or photographic representations. NOT faxes of scans passing thru the tabloids.

I do think it's impressive evidence that Board-certified and handwriting experts for BPD were unable to conclusively link PR to RN. Based though on what the Spin has presented, I'm scratching my head wondering how they came to that conclusion I must admit. :waitasec:

 

[Chrishope]

No, actually it seems you missed the joke. When the officials cracked up it was not Dr. Evil's pleasure but at his expense. It was NOT Dr. Evil's purpose to make officials laugh. He wanted to be taken seriously and was laughed at instead.

The intruder picked JR's bonus amount maybe BECAUSE he was being rhetorical. He wanted possibly to raise awareness of bonuses often referred to as 'fat cat bonuses'.

LOL! Of course the laugh was at Dr. Evil's expense - that's why the writers had him ask for 1 Million. It was a laughably small amount for the circumstances: but he'd been frozen for many years and didn't realize 1 million was no longer a large sum of money.

 

[BBB167893]

We do, I am open though that the author made a conscious attempt to imitate PR's handwriting. As I've said before, forgery is a common crime, and many famous forgeries involve paintings. But I'm open that PR wrote it.

I'm not too comfortable comparing painting forgeries to this, voynich. Let me put it this way: I might (and I hold reservations about "might") say it was possible to do it if the note had not been written right on the premises. It would take quite a while for someone to get THAT good. Like I said, which is more likely?

I am not trained as a handwriting expert ---- how do you explain this?

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Patsy+Ramsey+as+RN+Author

No BPD-Hired Experts Identified Patsy as RN Author. "During the investigation, the Boulder Police Department and Boulder County District Attorney's Office consulted at least six handwriting experts. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) All of these experts consulted the original Ransom Note and original handwriting exemplars from Mrs. Ramsey. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.) Four of these experts were hired by the police and two were hired by defendants. (SMF P 191; PSMF P 191.) None of the six consulted experts identified Mrs. Ramsey as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 195; PSMF P 195.) [Emphasis added.]

I explain it quite easily, actually:

1) Right off the bat, it should be remembered that those statements were essentially the unchallenged statements of the Rs and their legal team. The opposition had neither the information nor (more importantly) the inclination to challenge them.

Truth be told, I could end my explanation right there. But there's more:

2) To elaborate on that, during that civil case, Hoffman challenged Lin Wood to produce the actual handwriting reports and prove that they actually said what he claimed. Wood promised to do so. But when he asked Hal Haddon for those reports, Haddon refused, citing Grand Jury secrecy laws. Wood tried again after the Grand Jury secrecy law was struck down, and Haddon STILL would not give them up. You have to wonder why.

3) Perhaps most important of all, many of the analysts had limited information to work with. You don't have to take my word for it. Chet Ubowski himself said that the exemplars that were used during the early going "did not suggest the full range of her handwriting." In fact, there's a passage in PMPT where he chastised the police and DA's office for consulting other analysts before he had a chance to finish his report. Add to that, it wasn't until several years later that it became known that PR could write left-handed.

4) As an end-note, just to reinforce what I said in number one, PMPT contains several instances where it is hinted that the analysts do think she did it, but the courts wouldn't accept it. This was stated in a recent radio interview. It's around here somewhere.

So that's how I explain it. Granted, I'm not a handwriting expert either, but it's amazing what you can do with a little research!

 

[voynich]

I'm not too comfortable comparing painting forgeries to this, voynich. Let me put it this way: I might (and I hold reservations about "might") say it was possible to do it if the note had not been written right on the premises. It would take quite a while for someone to get THAT good. Like I said, which is more likely?



I explain it quite easily, actually:

1) Right off the bat, it should be remembered that those statements were essentially the unchallenged statements of the Rs and their legal team. The opposition had neither the information nor (more importantly) the inclination to challenge them.

Truth be told, I could end my explanation right there. But there's more:

2) To elaborate on that, during that civil case, Hoffman challenged Lin Wood to produce the actual handwriting reports and prove that they actually said what he claimed. Wood promised to do so. But when he asked Hal Haddon for those reports, Haddon refused, citing Grand Jury secrecy laws. Wood tried again after the Grand Jury secrecy law was struck down, and Haddon STILL would not give them up. You have to wonder why.

3) Perhaps most important of all, many of the analysts had limited information to work with. You don't have to take my word for it. Chet Ubowski himself said that the exemplars that were used during the early going "did not suggest the full range of her handwriting." In fact, there's a passage in PMPT where he chastised the police and DA's office for consulting other analysts before he had a chance to finish his report. Add to that, it wasn't until several years later that it became known that PR could write left-handed.

4) As an end-note, just to reinforce what I said in number one, PMPT contains several instances where it is hinted that the analysts do think she did it, but the courts wouldn't accept it. This was stated in a recent radio interview. It's around here somewhere.

So that's how I explain it. Granted, I'm not a handwriting expert either, but it's amazing what you can do with a little research!

Indeed.....

What about the section "others who cannot be eliminated" I'm not claiming they did it, only that the handwriting could have been written by someone other than PR based on superficial similarities


http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Who-Wrote-the-Ransom-Note#OthersWhoCouldNotBeEliminated


Others Who Could Not Be Eliminated
Overview

* Carnes Opinion. "Other experts believe the Ransom Note may have been authored by other people. In addition to Mrs. Ramsey, there were other individuals "under suspicion" who had their handwriting analyzed and who were not eliminated as the possible author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.)" (Carnes 2003:30).



* Hunter Deposition. Alex Hunter videotaped a deposition in the Wolf v. Ramsey case on November 27, 2001; according to Internet poster Jameson, parts of this deposition are under seal. However, the deposition was referenced in the videotaped deposition of Gideon Epstein May 17, 2002 which has been made public. (In this section, which begins on p. 165, line 22, the questioner is James Rawls Q. And from Alex Hunter's perspective, you also understood that there were other individuals under suspicion who were not eliminated; correct? A. That's what I understand, yes. Q. Who were not eliminated as the author of the ransom note. A. I understand that, right.


???? Henderson

* According to Internet poster Athena
in PMPT, "p181 Henderson's handwriting similar and no DNA ever taken because Harmon was working on it and she left the case and no one followed up." (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Bill McReynolds

* According to Internet poster Athena
"In his own book, Thomas states that McReynolds handwriting was similar but he did not believe he had anything to do with the murder because of his disability." (This appears to be a paraphrased reference; no specific page number provided).


Jeff Merrick

* According to Internet poster Athena, "According to PMPT p166 - Merriman's [sic] handwriting was so close they believed he wrote the note but did not kill JBR" (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Glenn Meyers

* According to Internet poster Athena, in PMPT "p182 - Glenn Meyers handwriting was was similiar;" (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).


Chris Wolf

* LLoyd Cunningham Analysis. "For example, forensic document examiner Lloyd Cunningham cannot eliminate plaintiff Chris Wolf as the author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 279; PSMF P 279.)" (Carnes 2003:30).
* Wolf's Girlfriend. "Plaintiff's ex-girlfriend has also testified that she was "struck by how the handwriting in the note resembled plaintiff's own handwriting" and believes that he is the note's author. (J. Brungardt Aff. P 43.)" (Carnes 2003:30).
* Editing Mark Used in RN. "Further, to the extent that the use of a single editing mark might suggest to plaintiff's experts that Mrs. Ramsey was the author, given her bachelor's degree in journalism, one should also note that plaintiff, himself, has a Masters' degree in journalism. (Id. P 13.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

 

[BBB167893]

OK I can work with this. If PR was taking anti-anxiety medication then that is corroboration for variation in the overall quality of her writing. PR taking anti-anxiety drugs would affect her handwriting in what way? Make it jittery, sloppy or smoother? Make more or fewer mistakes?

Well, it's been speculated that she took some just before she set out to write the RN and it kicked in part way through. But I honestly don't know what to make of that claim. But let's stay withing the fence, here. If she were taking it afterwards, and we know she was, then it could have several effects. Taking too much could make it quite sloppy. If it had side-effects, it could have made it jittery. But if it was administered properly, then it would most likely cause a smooth, clean writing style.

If the question is you thinking of 'using both hands' came before I brought it up, thats OK I'm not running a race.

Never said you were. I was just attempting to head off any accusations.

It would've been better if RDI brought that up first, speaking of racing.

Then we understand each other.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Never said you were. I was just attempting to head off any accusations.

You mean, like you stole my 'both hands' idea and then called it your own? That kind of accusation?

 

[BBB167893]

I do think it's impressive evidence that Board-certified and handwriting experts for BPD were unable to conclusively link PR to RN.

It's not quite like he makes it out, in a lot of ways.

Based though on what the Spin has presented, I'm scratching my head wondering how they came to that conclusion I must admit. :waitasec:

Like I said, it's not like it's made out.

 

[BBB167893]

You mean, like you stole my 'both hands' idea and then called it your own? That kind of accusation?

That's part of it, yes.

 

[BBB167893]

What about the section "others who cannot be eliminated" I'm not claiming they did it, only that the handwriting could have been written by someone other than PR based on superficial similarities

Again, a little research is in order. The people who are named here were not eliminated during the preliminary examinations. Further analyses did eliminate them. You don't have to take my word for that. Jeff Merrick himself described that particular experience in a radio interview, how they triple-checked him and said "no way."

I could go down the entire list you give, but there wouldn't really be any point.

I'm afraid ST is right: at the end of the day, there was only ONE person who was not eliminated, and that was PR.

* Carnes Opinion. "Other experts believe the Ransom Note may have been authored by other people. In addition to Mrs. Ramsey, there were other individuals "under suspicion" who had their handwriting analyzed and who were not eliminated as the possible author of the Ransom Note. (SMF P 205; PSMF P 205.)" (Carnes 2003:30).

I hate to be the one to break this to you, voynich, but that claim was based on the "analyses" of the two R-hired examiners.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

That's part of it, yes.

What's the other part?

 

[BBB167893]

What's the other part?

The accusation that I was just taking anything I could get.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

The accusation that I was just taking anything I could get.

Hey, thats my line, remember? The one that you 'could do a lot with'?

 

[BBB167893]

Hey, thats my line, remember? The one that you 'could do a lot with'?

Hey, I'm being straight with you.

 

[DeeDee249]

For the note to be a forgery, someone would have to have access to a LOT of PR's handwriting, as well as some idea of how she puts sentences together and words she frequently uses ("hence"). She also puts periods between acronyms (S.B.T.C.) which is not really done anymore. Patsy was also known to do this in writing to friends. This, to me, fits Patsy's journalism background very well.
I believe with all my heart that Patsy wrote the note. To me, the handwriting is a perfect match.
In PMPT, I recall Pete Hofstrom arguing with one of the LE, and he was saying
"So what if she wrote the note? It still doesn't prove she killed her kid".
He was right, of course. It DOESN'T prove she killed her kid. But it DOES prove she knew what happened that night, including who did kill her. Doesn't rule her out, either. There was simply no other reason for her to write the note. The note explained why the child was killed. And she was already dead- there needed to be an explanation other than "Officer, I lost my temper and bashed her skull in".
What infuriated me when I watched that part of PMPT is that LE had NO rebuttal, no answer to Hofstrom when he said that. All they would have had to say was what I said.

 

[voynich]

For the note to be a forgery, someone would have to have access to a LOT of PR's handwriting, as well as some idea of how she puts sentences together and words she frequently uses ("hence"). She also puts periods between acronyms (S.B.T.C.) which is not really done anymore. Patsy was also known to do this in writing to friends. This, to me, fits Patsy's journalism background very well.
I believe with all my heart that Patsy wrote the note. To me, the handwriting is a perfect match.
In PMPT, I recall Pete Hofstrom arguing with one of the LE, and he was saying
"So what if she wrote the note? It still doesn't prove she killed her kid".
He was right, of course. It DOESN'T prove she killed her kid. But it DOES prove she knew what happened that night, including who did kill her. Doesn't rule her out, either. There was simply no other reason for her to write the note. The note explained why the child was killed. And she was already dead- there needed to be an explanation other than "Officer, I lost my temper and bashed her skull in".
What infuriated me when I watched that part of PMPT is that LE had NO rebuttal, no answer to Hofstrom when he said that. All they would have had to say was what I said.

I do believe there might be a good faith basis for believing the note is in PR's handwriting based on handwriting. "Hence" and "narcisstic" "journalistic" are too commonplace and vague. I use the word Hence.

If the forger has been in the house before, and was there hours before as he wrote the note, using PR's writings as a guide, it might be possible.

 

[redeemed]

I do believe there might be a good faith basis for believing the note is in PR's handwriting based on handwriting. "Hence" and "narcisstic" "journalistic" are too commonplace and vague. I use the word Hence.

If the forger has been in the house before, and was there hours before as he wrote the note, using PR's writings as a guide, it might be possible.

Oh no!!! Seems we are back to square one with you again....what happened...you were doing so well....(sigh)

 

[voynich]

Oh no!!! Seems we are back to square one with you again....what happened...you were doing so well....(sigh)

I think that the RDI have strong prima facie evidence that the handwriting is a match to PR based on the specific examples provided. Yes HOTYH is correct for the standard of a professional handwriting analysis. But I think there is a good faith rational basis to think the two handwritings are from same author.

By way of comparison, I would agree with HOTYH that the handwriting of Rn and JR look nothing alike.

I don't think though we can rule out that the intruder had looked at PR's handwriting, esp on the previous pages on the yellow pad, and thought to try to emulate it.

IF you want, you can post your own handwriting, and I can try to emulate it.