To those of you sitting on the fence....

[Chrishope]

While you're wiping off your chin, I agree that SFF harming the US isn't going to happen solely by JBR's murder.

What about all the possible ramifications for a SFF having come all the way to Boulder, Colorado to do that for reasons we don't understand. Yet. A clue would be the ransom amount. Its not unlike Dr. Evil asking for one 'million' dollars. The only reason Dr. Evil asked for any amount was to be rhetorical. Dr. Evil already decided to be evil and being evil was what he wanted more than money.

Now, with evil in mind, reread the ransom note. Esp. the part about beheading a child. Now, have another look at those autopsy photos. Pretty evil stuff, eh? Maybe sit down with your cup of coffee and think about the ransom amount.

It was wrong, huh.

Its when the R's are exhonerated by new DNA technology, and the BPD is throwing their hands up that maybe, well maybe we can ponder just about any scenario.

What if ____________________ did this because ___________________________________?

Sure, we can ponder any scenario. What about space aliens from the planet Zork? Could have been?

I prefer to ponder what is probable.

Dr. Evil asked for "One Million Dollars" because it was funny. $118K is not funny, nor is it rhetorical. Even if a SSF (improbably) targeted a 6 year old girl for the purpose of doing "evil", there still has to be a reason to settle on the 118k figure.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Sure, we can ponder any scenario. What about space aliens from the planet Zork? Could have been?

How far is it from JBR's house to, say, the Denver Interplanetary Spaceport? Oh, wait, no. Its called the Denver International Airport.


I prefer to ponder what is probable. Then you would be pondering the SFF. Do you know why? Because unlike Kaczynski nobody has come forward. There is no DNA match, no handwriting match, and no linguistics match. IOW thats 'probably' because the pool of US citizens that only naive, narrow minded people would limit themselves to isn't big enough to include the perp.

Remember that someone involved in the crime stated they represented a small foreign faction, so there is evidence SFF was involved. The corroborating evidence is the coldness of the case, or lack of a match or anyone coming forward with information.

Dr. Evil asked for "One Million Dollars" because it was funny. $118K is not funny, nor is it rhetorical. Even if a SSF (improbably) targeted a 6 year old girl for the purpose of doing "evil", there still has to be a reason to settle on the 118k figure.

You're wrong here. In the movie, Dr. Evil did not ask for one million dollars to make people laugh. He was simply trying to be evil. The ransom amount was rhetorical or arbitrary. Dr. Evil didn't need the million dollars, remember?

More wrongness, you stated that 118000 ransom wasn't rhetorical as if it were a fact when you don't really know. There's at least two reasons for the ransom to be rhetorical: JBR was found murdered before any ransom could've been collected, and the ransom amount was not a suitable ransom amount for the circumstances.

 

[BBB167893]

Its clear that PR's right hand exemplars are generally superior in quality to the ransom note writings. Its also clear that the ransom note writings are superior in quality to PR's left hand exemplars. If PR wrote the note, then the general differences in quality needs to be explained.

There are wildcard explanations, like 'disguised writing' and 'more nervous at one time vs. another' but these explanations have to be corroborated to be useful. Thats because the wildcard explanations can be freely applied to anyone.

Even if two e's look alike, RDI still needs an explanation for the general difference in quality.

You call those explanations "wildcards," but again, that goes back to what I said about the difference between knowledge and wisdom. More specifically, we have PR on tape and transcribed as talking about the anti-anxiety drugs she was using later on (whether that was true at the time of the killing is an open question), so I'd say that could be corroborated.

More to the point, it's established at this point that she could write left-handed (very possibly much better than she let on). Also, I would remind you that the "using both hands" idea was in my head before it became an issue, i.e., before you brought it up. It wasn't some "damage control idea whipped out of thin air." I got there completely on my own based on what I had in front of me.

 

[BBB167893]

My eyes tell me the handwriting is the same or forgery was involved.

Mm! Very good indeed. So ask yourself the magical question: which is more likely?

 

[BBB167893]

This is only tabloid junk that SD and Mad have you all shaken up with.

The exemplars posted above are NOT photographic representations as you suggested.

I protest! Slander and calumny. The exemplars posted above were, in fact, obtained from official sources and are not to be confused with publically available materials.

 

[BBB167893]

Well that brings things down to the motive of the intruder.
Why bother trying to implicate or frame PR in that ransom note?
How much time would it take to learn PR’s handwriting well enough?
Where would the intruder obtain enough samples of PR’s handwriting?

:applause:

 

[BBB167893]

True, but coupled with means, opportunity and other RN characteristics, the field narrows considerably.

Yeah, I was going to say, how many of those 120 million +/- can be placed in the house that night?

 

[BBB167893]

I don't know the answer to these good questions. Maybe SD knows?

To be blunt, Chris, I had hoped to avoid going over all of that again. But here goes:

How did they explain how an intruder might know his bonus? Who did they identify by name as who would know this amount?

A while back I suggested that they had a "fall guy" in mind. Leaving that aside for a moment, they certainly didn't hesitate to name their close friends and employees as suspects, did they?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I protest! Slander and calumny. The exemplars posted above were, in fact, obtained from official sources and are not to be confused with publically available materials.

"...were, in fact, obtained from official sources..."
This is patently false.

Madelaine obtained the exemplars posted above from an official source? No.

Was it a photograph that Madelaine obtained from the official source?
No.


Would you like to try again?

 

[voynich]

Mm! Very good indeed. So ask yourself the magical question: which is more likely?

:truce:

 

[BBB167893]

"...were, in fact, obtained from official sources..."
This is patently false.

Madelaine obtained the exemplars posted above from an official source? No.

Was it a photograph that Madelaine obtained from the official source?
No.


Would you like to try again?

I think you misunderstood. The examiners obtained them from official sources. That's what I meant.

But since we're on the subject, you're not seriously suggesting that the examiners forged the exemplars posted above, are you?

 

[redeemed]

:truce:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fc5iQ2xKl8[/ame]

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I think you misunderstood. The examiners obtained them from official sources. That's what I meant.

But since we're on the subject, you're not seriously suggesting that the examiners forged the exemplars posted above, are you?

What examiners? Cina Wong? Was she given photos by BPD to conduct a real examination?

What you believe you have are photographic representations from an official source. What you really have are scanned faxed 200 DPI bitmap from the tabloids. Thats because PR's exemplars were never publicly released by BPD, CBI, or FBI. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, with dates and places and people and stuff like that.

 

[BBB167893]

What examiners? Cina Wong?

Among others.

Was she given photos by BPD to conduct a real examination?

How do you mean that?

What you believe you have are photographic representations from an official source. What you really have are scanned faxed 200 DPI bitmap from the tabloids. Thats because PR's exemplars were never publicly released by BPD, CBI, or FBI.

I don't believe I said they were released publically by those outfits.

So, can I say with certainty that you are not accusing the examiners of falsifying their reports?

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, with dates and places and people and stuff like that.

I might give that a shot, as soon as you tell me how you know all of that so exactly.

 

[Chrishope]

You're wrong here. In the movie, Dr. Evil did not ask for one million dollars to make people laugh. He was simply trying to be evil. The ransom amount was rhetorical or arbitrary. Dr. Evil didn't need the million dollars, remember?

More wrongness, you stated that 118000 ransom wasn't rhetorical as if it were a fact when you don't really know. There's at least two reasons for the ransom to be rhetorical: JBR was found murdered before any ransom could've been collected, and the ransom amount was not a suitable ransom amount for the circumstances.

With respect, you've completely missed the joke in the Austin Powers movie. The fact that the officials crack up at the request of One Million Dollars indicates the purpose was humor.

If the intruder had simply made up a number for "rhetorical" purposes, it's highly unlikely that he'd have picked the amount of JR's bonus unless he knew the amount.

It's true the amount wasn't suitable, which makes it unlikely that is was chosen by anyone other than the Rs. It's also true that JBR was murdered and therefore no ransom could be collected, which means this was never a kidnapping to begin with.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

With respect, you've completely missed the joke in the Austin Powers movie. The fact that the officials crack up at the request of One Million Dollars indicates the purpose was humor.

If the intruder had simply made up a number for "rhetorical" purposes, it's highly unlikely that he'd have picked the amount of JR's bonus unless he knew the amount.

It's true the amount wasn't suitable, which makes it unlikely that is was chosen by anyone other than the Rs. It's also true that JBR was murdered and therefore no ransom could be collected, which means this was never a kidnapping to begin with.

No, actually it seems you missed the joke. When the officials cracked up it was not Dr. Evil's pleasure but at his expense. It was NOT Dr. Evil's purpose to make officials laugh. He wanted to be taken seriously and was laughed at instead.

The intruder picked JR's bonus amount maybe BECAUSE he was being rhetorical. He wanted possibly to raise awareness of bonuses often referred to as 'fat cat bonuses'.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Among others.



How do you mean that?



I don't believe I said they were released publically by those outfits.

So, can I say with certainty that you are not accusing the examiners of falsifying their reports?



I might give that a shot, as soon as you tell me how you know all of that so exactly.

If they weren't released publicly, then how do you know Cina Wong, 'among others,' received officially released photographs of PR exemplars with which to conduct an examination?

The issue here is what materials were used for examination and where they came from. I'm saying they were leaked out and come from the tabloids via scan and fax.

It seems to me the only valid examinations that took place were under the control of BPD, CBI, FBI and those examiners used either originals or photographic representations of originals. NOT the scanned faxed bitmaps that you refer to as 'officially released exemplars' that were posted above in this thread.

It is those examiners that performed the real deal. What was their result?

 

[BBB167893]

If they weren't released publicly, then how do you know Cina Wong, 'among others,' received officially released photographs of PR exemplars with which to conduct an examination?

I think you and I are victims of a mutual misunderstanding. I thought you meant that they had been falsified in some way. That's what I was protesting.

The issue here is what materials were used for examination and where they came from. I'm saying they were leaked out and come from the tabloids via scan and fax.

I think it's worth mentioning that the materials posted above were taken from court documents, whatever that does for you.

It seems to me the only valid examinations that took place were under the control of BPD, CBI, FBI and those examiners used either originals or photographic representations of originals.

Well, that particular dodge has been used before. Not that I agree with it, mind you.

It is those examiners that performed the real deal. What was their result?

I believe it came out on the scale as "indications did write."

Look, HOTYH, I realize you probably don't want to hear this, especially from me, but this is one instance where voynich and I are in full agreement: we believe what we see.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

I
Look, HOTYH, I realize you probably don't want to hear this, especially from me, but this is one instance where voynich and I are in full agreement: we believe what we see.

It shouldn't be too surprising that I'm really not that interested in what you are or are not believing, or with whom you are or are not in agreement.

Its all about expressing our views and equal time.

Meanwhile, I think I'm going to look into exactly what the examiners said, those that worked with the originals or photos of the originals. I would tend to void results from scanned faxed bitmaps because you don't know who did what to them along the way. IOW those e's look identical but where did you pick those up? On the street?

 

[BBB167893]

It shouldn't be too surprising that I'm really not that interested in what you are or are not believing, or with whom you are or are not in agreement.

Its all about expressing our views and equal time.

Fair enough.