Trial Discussion Thread #11 weekend thread

[minor4th]

Retweeted 8 times
Alex Crawford ‏@AlexCrawfordSky Mar 19
#OscarPistorius Nel refers to Michelle Burger's evidence..a shot (pause) then 3 others in succession. 'That's possible', says Mangena

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A31z0aNCNHs&feature=share

douf douf douf douf

He explains that there was a "pause" of some sort between first and second shot but doesn't know if that break is longer than the breaks between the second and third shots, and between the third and fourth shots.

ie., he doesn't know whether it was bang ...bang bang bang, or bang bang bang bang, or bang bang....bang bang, or bang bang bang ...bang.

 

[LemonMousse]

Actually the ballistics expert said the shots were bang bang bang bang, no pause.

And Stipp heard additional sounds that woke him up earlier - and he identified those sounds as gunshots.

Here's what I think the evidence has pretty well established, and everything else is interpretation by the witnesses:

1. There were 2 sets of loud bangs within minutes of each other

2. After the first set of bangs and before the second set of bangs there was loud screaming/wailing

3. The second set of bangs happened very close to 3:17

4. Screaming occurred up to and perhaps throughout the 2nd set of bangs at 3:17

5. For a period of time after the 3:17 bangs there was silence and no screaming or yelling was heard

6. The gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door

7. One of the sets of bangs was gunshots

8. The other set of bangs was the cricket bat hitting the door - or it was some other sound that has not been explained or alleged by either side

6: No, the evidence was not that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door. The witness was quite clear, that the minor marks on door were made by the cricket bat and these could have happened before the gunshots. The door was broken after the gunshots - and please bear in mind that the evidence was that the panels were prised out either by twisting the bat or with hands. There was no evidence whatsoever that the door was smashed open by the cricket bat.

You've also skipped the point where Stipp, standing on his balcony talking to security, heard a man shout "help, help, help" slightly to the left of where the previous screams had come from. OP's balcony is, from Stipp's perspective, slightly to left of the bathroom where the screaming had come from.

This happened after the last shots, when according to OP this is the first thing he did after the shooting and before he broke down the door.

Unfortunately, Stipp heard this after the last set of bangs. Is that why you skipped it?

 

[minor4th]

That's funny because I heard him describe a shot to the hip, then a pause as Reeva fell down on to the magazine rack, and then the following three shots without pause. Weird how people can hear the same event but have slightly different recollections isn't it! :floorlaugh:

Not exactly, I just posted the video above - he did say there was a break between the first and second shot but he doesn't know whether the same break occurred between the 2nd and 3rd shot, etc

 

[james83]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A31z0aNCNHs&feature=share

douf douf douf douf

He explains that there was a "pause" of some sort between first and second shot but doesn't know if that break is longer than the breaks between the second and third shots, and between the third and fourth shots.

ie., he doesn't know whether it was bang ...bang bang bang, or bang bang bang bang, or bang bang....bang bang, or bang bang bang ...bang.

Lol, so he basically said 4 shots were fired.

 

[steveml]

What's telling for me about Stipp's testimony is
1) On the screams he heard "She sounded fearful. Of someone who was in fear of his or her life," said Johan Stipp, continuing his testimony after the lunch adjournment.

2) Stipp returned to the balcony and heard a man screaming three times for help.

Clearly identifies a male scream from a female scream.

That's not how I read it? First line says 'someone who is in fear of 'his or her life'. That suggests he can't tell the difference between a man and a woman.

 

[minor4th]

6: No, the evidence was not that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door. The witness was quite clear, that the minor marks on door were made by the cricket bat and these could have happened before the gunshots. The door was broken after the gunshots - and please bear in mind that the evidence was that the panels were prised out either by twisting the bat or with hands. There was no evidence whatsoever that the door was smashed open by the cricket bat.

You've also skipped the point where Stipp, standing on his balcony talking to security, heard a man shout "help, help, help" slightly to the left of where the previous screams had come from. OP's balcony is, from Stipp's perspective, slightly to left of the bathroom where the screaming had come from.

This happened after the last shots, when according to OP this is the first thing he did after the shooting and before he broke down the door.

Unfortunately, Stipp heard this after the last set of bangs. Is that why you skipped it?

You need to review the replay of the witnesses because he definitely said the cricket bat was after the gunshots. Period.

And I didn't skip anything about Stipp - I said there was silence after the second set of bangs - the witnesses contradict each other was to whether help help help was said before the 3:17 bangs or after - so I didn't include that as something that is established by the evidence.

 

[minor4th]

Lol, so he basically said 4 shots were fired.

Yes! lol

 

[Rumpole]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A31z0aNCNHs&feature=share

douf douf douf douf

He explains that there was a "pause" of some sort between first and second shot but doesn't know if that break is longer than the breaks between the second and third shots, and between the third and fourth shots.

ie., he doesn't know whether it was bang ...bang bang bang, or bang bang bang bang, or bang bang....bang bang, or bang bang bang ...bang.

You mean perhaps...

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[Interested Bystander]

So they heard blood curdling screams, called security - then heard "gunshots" and just went to bed wondering if the woman's husband was shot in front of her?

I don't see where they called security or anything when they heard gunshots?

I am not sure where you have been looking but you can view the video on You Tube where she gives her testimony. It is quite clear she gave her husband her phone with the security number selected and dialled. In error it was the security for a previous address.

Oscar Pistorius murder trial Michelle Burger's testimony - YouTube

 

[Rumpole]

:banghead:

Now there's a thought....

Nobody is considering if OP was banging his head on the wall at 3:10 :floorlaugh:


Maybe check his iPad to see if he was posting with the late night crowd at a True Crime Forum somewhere?

 

[james83]

6: No, the evidence was not that the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door. The witness was quite clear, that the minor marks on door were made by the cricket bat and these could have happened before the gunshots. The door was broken after the gunshots - and please bear in mind that the evidence was that the panels were prised out either by twisting the bat or with hands. There was no evidence whatsoever that the door was smashed open by the cricket bat.

You've also skipped the point where Stipp, standing on his balcony talking to security, heard a man shout "help, help, help" slightly to the left of where the previous screams had come from. OP's balcony is, from Stipp's perspective, slightly to left of the bathroom where the screaming had come from.

This happened after the last shots, when according to OP this is the first thing he did after the shooting and before he broke down the door.

Unfortunately, Stipp heard this after the last set of bangs. Is that why you skipped it?

That is such a great point, both sets of bangs occur then stipp hears Oscar's cry for help as mentioned in his affidavit, which of course means at that point the toilet door is yet to be broken down.
So in theory the first bangs stipp heard could have been the bat hitting the door(in a threatening way), 2nd bangs gunshots, then Stipp leaves his house to head to Oscar's before the toilet door is broken open meaning he wouldn't have heard that part.

 

[minor4th]

The one that surprised me very early on was Roux's questioning of Ms Burger. He regularly used the contents of other witness statements in his questioning towards her. In the UK you're simply not allowed to discredit a witness by asking them to comment on what a future witness may say.

Wouldn't be allowed in US either, but apparently it is required in SA

 

[minor4th]

I am not sure where you have been looking but you can view the video on You Tube where she gives her testimony. It is quite clear she gave her husband her phone with the security number selected and dialled. In error it was the security for a previous address.

Oscar Pistorius murder trial Michelle Burger's testimony - YouTube

Was that after the gunshots though? Sorry, I'm not trying to be contrary, I just missed it if that is what was said.

ETA: I listened again - security was called while screaming was heard. Then shots were heard - then they went to bed.

 

[james83]

You need to review the replay of the witnesses because he definitely said the cricket bat was after the gunshots. Period.

And I didn't skip anything about Stipp - I said there was silence after the second set of bangs - the witnesses contradict each other was to whether help help help was said before the 3:17 bangs or after - so I didn't include that as something that is established by the evidence.

No necessarily because Stipp only heard a man scream for help, where as the Burgers heard a man and a woman, also Mr burger said the male voice sounded embarrassed in the way he was calling for help.

 

[minor4th]

No necessarily because Stipp only heard a man scream for help, where as the Burgers heard a man and a woman, also Mr burger said the male voice sounded embarrassed in the way he was calling for help.

Once again, I was trying to demonstrate exactly what has been established by the evidence. Not what is possible and not what is contradicted among different witnesses. Like I said, I did not include any of the witnesses' interpretation of whether the screams were "blood-curdling", "female", "male", "monotone" etc.

 

[james83]

That's not how I read it? First line says 'someone who is in fear of 'his or her life'. That suggests he can't tell the difference between a man and a woman.

He definitely said she.

 

[BritsKate]

That's not how I read it? First line says 'someone who is in fear of 'his or her life'. That suggests he can't tell the difference between a man and a woman.

Perhaps we should judge by the totality of his statement? He doesn't seem to be confused about gender, imo.

"She sounded fearful. Of someone who was in fear of his or her life," said Johan Stipp, continuing his testimony after the lunch adjournment.

"She sounded to be emotional, anguished, scared almost scared out of her mind, I would say."

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2014/03/06/oscar-trial-witness-johan-stipp-describes-screams

 

[james83]

Once again, I was trying to demonstrate exactly what has been established by the evidence. Not what is possible and not what is contradicted among different witnesses. Like I said, I did not include any of the witnesses' interpretation of whether the screams were "blood-curdling", "female", "male", "monotone" etc.

Sorry i should have been clearer in the point i was trying to make which was that those screams/shouts for help might be different events.

 

[lisasalinger]

With the State case mostly in...

Lets assume there are NO huge bombshells to come, just for this question.

WHO would say that OP is proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt of firing into the door KNOWING that Reeva was behind it?

And the Defence has not even responded yet.

As of this very minute, I would have to say not guilty on premeditation.

 

[MeeBee]

Ok, so the Burgers, nearly two football fields away, heard the shots, people screaming, but the cricket bat was too quiet to hear? Where do human screams measure on the db scale?