Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[G.bng]

Pgrhaps Nel decided they wouldn't provide anything particularly useful to his case?

Witness lists are not of who you call, rather of who you can call if you need them. The aim is probably to include as many as possible so that you are not caught out in an emergency. From there to calling all of those you list to testify is a big stretch.

 

[minor4th]

Witness lists are not of who you call, rather of who you can call if you need them. The aim is probably to include as many as possible so that you are not caught out in an emergency. From there to calling all of those you list to testify is a big stretch.

And apparently if the witnesses are on the state's witness list, then the defense can't speak to them about the case. That gives a high motivation to include as many witnesses as possible on the list

ETA: It would also exclude all of those witnesses from the courtroom throughout the trial. This is used for strategic and psychological purposes very often

 

[MeeBee]

Witness lists are not of who you call, rather of who you can call if you need them. The aim is probably to include as many as possible so that you are not caught out in an emergency. From there to calling all of those you list to testify is a big stretch.

I do know this. But I believe if they were on the list, Nel would have investigated to see if there was anything that would be helpful to his case. If they weren't called there must not have been much there.

 

[nastasya]

partial quote:
That 5 minutes does not prove OP was awake then.

Apps, like Facebook, can push notifications to the phone. So yes, the phone can access the internet passively.

That said, I challenge anybody to explain how that passive access could last 5 full minutes.

It's also true that it could have been Reeva accessing the internet using killer's phone, and may have discovered something that started the fight that Van der Merwe heard at 1:56.

 

[Carol70]

Estelle van der Merwe testified she was awakened by a man and woman arguing at 1:56 am.

So killer access internet for 5 minutes, from 1:48 am to 1:53 am. Three minutes later Van der Merwe wakes up to sounds of an argument.

But that's not all.

Van der Merwe said the argument kept her awake for an hour and heard "bang bang" sounds.

Unless killer is also a time traveler and went back to 1:56 to scream like a woman, Van der Merwe's testimony, combined with other witnesses and internet access at 1:48 am, ALL contradict killer's alibi.

And amazingly, the states own witness, Mr Baba, went past OPs house at 2.20am and all was quiet, no loud argument on the go that had kept van der merwe awake for an hour...the states witnesses contradicting each other!

 

[Gavel Rash]

If the last bangs where said to be heard at 3.16? And call to Stander at 3.19...then 3 odd minutes to run to room get phones, legs and key? Because if shots last then there is no more bangs to indicate door breakdown after these sounds? And if no more break down sounds then when did he retrieve key? And if he got blood on wall behind bed head was he retrieving Reevas phone to make call cause he couldn't find his immediately? And then why did he have blood on him at all and how did that blood also get onto doona cover? Retrieving his phone form other side of bed or off bed?

I'm taking key form here because it had to be inside of door.

 

[JuneBug67]

It's not that relevant, he may have had stander on speed dial and just dialed him first. I can imagine his hands at that point where not exactly steady or he was thinking that rationally. I would have raised an eyebrow if he had called his lawyer/brother/friend that doesn't live close to him first.

I think also there is an element of 'auto-pilot' in high stress situations. You revert to personality/experience. It would be instinctive for Oscar as a celebrity athlete to have situations 'managed', and Stander's role at the estate was concerned with that. That's why I wasn't surprised by the comments about 'hoping it didn't get out into the media' or whatever. At first glance it seems cold and crass, but both the words and actions may have tumbled out in what was an incredibly unusual and terrible situation.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I find it a little strange that Roux and Uncle Pistorius claim there were only 4 calls of an 'argumentative nature' (not their words). The IT guy pointed out that it was 4 conversations, meaning several calls about each of the 4 disagreements. Nel is bound to bring those up and what they were. If they were anything like the one he has already brought into evidence they may throw more light on the their problems.

 

[lisasalinger]

Estelle van der Merwe testified she was awakened by a man and woman arguing at 1:56 am.

So killer access internet for 5 minutes, from 1:48 am to 1:53 am. Three minutes later Van der Merwe wakes up to sounds of an argument.

But that's not all.

Van der Merwe said the argument kept her awake for an hour and heard "bang bang" sounds.

Unless killer is also a time traveler and went back to 1:56 to scream like a woman, Van der Merwe's testimony, combined with other witnesses and internet access at 1:48 am, ALL contradict killer's alibi.

BBM

I thought about that too. Could be something. I guess we'll just have to wait and see at this point.

 

[Really?]

How can he be guilty beyond reasonable doubt? The trial is not over, and the defence has not put their evidence forward yet.

Sorry to break this news, but.....I believe the law in SA is he is guilty of murder. bang.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I agree, their security does seem different.

But I didn't get the impression that Stander was security. I think he's the Estate Manager... more of a business guy. I really want him and his daughter to take the stand!

Yes I think he is the estate manager and his daughter is supposed to be a solicitor ?

 

[Really?]

Of course THE most nagging question that just about all of us want the answer to from Oscar is what the h#ll were the two series of bangs. Now... of course he's going to say guns first, cricket bat second while Roux is questioning him... but what will Nel have to say about that? This is where the State needs to interject their own theory of those sounds to challenge him.

I have entertained the possibility (just purely my own crazy thinking) that sometime close to 3am, OP shot Reeva in the hip while she was hiding in the bathroom. I don't know why it sounded like 3 shots to the Stipps, I'm just thinking out of the box here.

She is in that toilet room screaming for her life. God knows what he is doing in the bathroom during this time, although we do know at some point a male voice is heard mixed together with her screams. Burger and Johnson heard "help, help, help" in a lower, more monotone voice, possible mocking.

The last 3 shots that finish her off are then shot around 3:14am. The Stipps did say she was screaming that entire time. Maybe it wasn't just fear, maybe it was pain. It would explain two serious of gunshots heard. Again, I can't account for why it sounded like 3. But it would explain why both sounds were exactly the same.

I sway towards OP attacking her first with the bat..maybe whacking it on the panel on the tub....breaking some tiles on the wall....a non fatal injury that escalated to murder with the gun because heck after a bat attack he is done
already......kwim?

 

[Interested Bystander]

And amazingly, the states own witness, Mr Baba, went past OPs house at 2.20am and all was quiet, no loud argument on the go that had kept van der merwe awake for an hour...the states witnesses contradicting each other!

It is just possible that she did hear something for about an hour. If you work back from 03.17 when she heard the shots, she could have heard arguing just after Baba had passed at 02.20. I don't think anyone would quibble about her being 5 minutes out in her estimation.

 

[DebinGA]

If the last bangs where said to be heard at 3.16? And call to Stander at 3.19...then 3 odd minutes to run to room get phones, legs and key? Because if shots last then there is no more bangs to indicate door breakdown after these sounds? And if no more break down sounds then when did he retrieve key? And if he got blood on wall behind bed head was he retrieving Reevas phone to make call cause he couldn't find his immediately? And then why did he have blood on him at all and how did that blood also get onto doona cover? Retrieving his phone form other side of bed or off bed?

I'm taking key form here because it had to be inside of door.

Can you imagine OP on the stand trying to answer those questions and many more? I can't. I'd like to think he'll testify, but I can't imagine the emotional basketcase on display in the courtroom being a coherent witness.

 

[sorrell skye]

Excerpt from Reeva's text to OP on 26 January 2013

I am the girl who let go with u even when I was scared out of my mind to, I'm the girl who fell in love with you and wanted to tell you this weekend.

After being able to read the text in its entirety, I think this particular bit where Reeva talked about 'being scared out of her mind' is referring to her having (justifiable) reservations about letting go & falling in love with OP.

This other bit, though, I have no doubt referred to actual fear of OP and/or his actions/reactions:

I'm scared of u sometimes and how u snap at me and of how you will react to me.

https://twitter.com/justteaplease/status/448168967098863616/photo/1

IIRC, Reeva had been in an abusive relationship in the past. I think she saw the warning signs in OP's behavior (based on the things she mentioned in her text to him), which caused her to feel ambivalent about falling in love with him. I think OP was probably very convincing in his apologies following his abusive behavior. I also think Reeva was a very loving person - the kind of person who sees the best in people, which was why she was so beloved by everyone who knew her and which was why she forgave him when he treated her atrociously.

It's apparent to me that Reeva expended a lot of energy trying to avoid saying or doing anything that might set OP off - trying not to 'rock the boat' as she put it. This is typical in abusive relationships.

I truly don't believe that OP accepted her for the wonderful, fun, perfect-just-the-way-you-are person that she was. But then, this is also typical of an abusive person - nothing one says or does is ever good enough. It's a classic form of psychological abuse that, over time, undermines and destroys one's self-esteem until the victim believes the lie that they are so worthless that no one but the abuser could ever love them. Then they're right where the abuser wants them: completely under their control.

OP's criticisms of Reeva have absolutely nothing to do with anything Reeva said or did, but they have everything to do with OP's obsessive need to control. Although there's no direct evidence to support the following supposition, I suspect the night OP shot & killed Reeva may have been because he saw his control slipping away.

If it's true (I believe it is) that they were engaged in a heated argument (as heard by Mrs. van der Merwe), it could be that Reeva had finally had enough and wanted to end the relationship and leave. This could be why the bedroom door was locked - to prevent Reeva from leaving.

Roux wants to dismiss OP's verbal, emotional, and psychological abuse of Reeva by pointing to a handful of lovey-dovey text messages. As anyone who has ever been in an abusive relationship can attest: the episodes of abuse are typically interspersed between 'honeymoon' periods, followed by ever-tightening spirals of abuse, as the abuse escalates over time.

As I've stated on a previous thread, given everything we've learned about OP's temperament, his rages, his jealous nature, and his quickness to reach for his gun, and given what I know about the spiral of abuse, I'm not at all surprised that he shot and killed Reeva. I'm deeply saddened that he did, but not surprised.

 

[minor4th]

It is just possible that she did hear something for about an hour. If you work back from 03.17 when she heard the shots, she could have heard arguing just after Baba had passed at 02.20. I don't think anyone would quibble about her being 5 minutes out in her estimation.

Well she said she awoke at 1:56 to the sounds of one voice talking, possibly arguing. She did not say those sounds were coming from Pistorius' house though. She said she didn't know where the sounds were coming from.

 

[Carol70]

Sorry to break this news, but.....I believe the law in SA is he is guilty of murder. bang.

Yes but he has pleaded "not guilty" to the charge put to him as premeditated murder. If the state can't prove he intentionally killed Reeva (and knew it was her in the bathroom), and the defence does manage to make a good case of he truly did think his life was in danger and he was trying to protect himself and Reeva, he could very well walk, as the documented cases of this nature I have pointed out before have proved. At most, he could get a suspended with his gun licenses being revoked.

Besides the fact, the states case was Reeva died at 3.17 from a shot to the head, we now know this is not possible.

 

[Carol70]

It is just possible that she did hear something for about an hour. If you work back from 03.17 when she heard the shots, she could have heard arguing just after Baba had passed at 02.20. I don't think anyone would quibble about her being 5 minutes out in her estimation.

Lol, it is possible.....but numerous witnesses have stated they heard the first shots and screaming between (and to give everyone a reasonable timeline to be safe) 2.55-3.05.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I still believe he knew who was in that bathroom.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[JuneBug67]

Yes but he has pleaded "not guilty" to the charge put to him as premeditated murder. If the state can't prove he intentionally killed Reeva (and knew it was her in the bathroom), and the defence does manage to make a good case of he truly did think his life was in danger and he was trying to protect himself and Reeva, he could very well walk, as the documented cases of this nature I have pointed out before have proved. At most, he could get a suspended with his gun licenses being revoked.

Besides the fact, the states case was Reeva died at 3.17 from a shot to the head, we now know this is not possible.

BBM: It is certainly left very much in doubt at the very least. I remember back when Roux was pushing some point or other about the timeline Nel said "that is not the state's case" (in reference to the shooting occurring during the first set of noises) and the following up with "if the there are discrepancies with the state's witnesses, we will deal with that". But he never really did deal with that. Unless I missed it, the state never explained the first noises heard by both Stipps. Unless something really falls the state's way about the screaming during the defense presentation, I just don't know how to get around the fact that the bulk of the evidence really does support Oscar's version pretty well.