Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[TorisMom003]

I'll try and explain the reason for generality in a statement. In a situation where you are likely to face a murder charge, the first thing you will be told by your lawyer is to keep your mouth shut. This is applicable to both innocent accused and guilty accused. The classic 'anything you say can and will be used...'. It's just a way of protecting yourself.

The same applies to a statement. Explain what you need to, and leave it at that. The more detail you put in there, the more problems you may have if you feel the need to change something afterwards. Look at how Roux has dealt with any of the witnesses that have done this. As the accused you'll get your chance to fill in the missing pieces in court.

If I just take the gun cartridges as an example. Had OP put in his statement one of the gun cartridges came out near the back wall, and said he shot from there, we could have a situation where the cartridge was kicked, thus making it look like he lied on the statement.

Before trial prosecution will look for any detail they can to use against you. Why give them a helping hand?

Then why did he add in the extra part about how much he and Reeva were in love? It didn't go with the flow of his story at that point. It did, however, seem to be added because perhaps he felt obligated to say it. I suppose he thought that the State simply wouldn't find those texts of how Reeva was unsure if OP loved her.

 

[james83]

I believe there are bits of truth in his affidavit. I also believe that most of those bits of truth he has attributed to himself as saying, doing, yelling and/or screaming when in fact it was Reeva that said, did, yelled and/or screamed them.

I do believe that he ran down and opened the front door, not so that he could take Reeva to the hospital though, so that Stander AND his lawyer daughter could enter the house.

I do believe that he yelled "get out of my house" but that it was not to any "intruder" but during a fight he had with Reeva and to Reeva.

I do believe that he "yelled" helphelphelp but that it was not on the balcony and that it was in a mocking tone towards Reeva because she was truly yelling HELPHELPHELP.

MOO

The man heard screaming for help the night Oscar Pistorius shot dead Reeva Steenkamp sounded embarrassed to be doing so, the High Court in Pretoria heard.

"The man almost sounded embarrassed in calling for help... That is the impression I got, it's what struck me," Charl Johnson said to questioning from Barry Roux, for Pistorius.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/03/06/screaming-man-sounded-embarrassed-pistorius-witness

 

[Carol70]

Why would the key not be in easy reach? After all, the gun was right there where OP could easily grab it. I don't know of anyone that would lock their bedroom door and then put the key somewhere where it would be difficult to get to, unless of course they are trying to keep someone in the room.

MOO

Who knows why but what I do personally know from experience is every single time I have needed to find car keys, bedroom keys etc in a hurry, they are amazingly never where I previously left them

 

[Interested Bystander]

The nature of the threat only has to be imminent.

You don't have to visibly see an attacker.

I don't think this argument would stand up as OP could easily have hit his alarm button, left by the bedroom door which was very near the bed and left the house. He did not need to chase down an imaginary intruder. That would not be the most sensible course of action. I wonder if you would feel the same if there had been an intruder in the toilet cubicle and after shooting to kill it was found to be an unarmed juvenile.

 

[screecher]

i have issue's here
3:21:11 Oscar ends call with netcare who he says told him to bring her in
3:26 Dr Johan Stipp arrives at Oscar's to find Oscar rendering assistance to Reeva at the foot of the stairs.
So why didn't Oscar do as netcare told him?, he say's after the netcare call he ran downstairs and opened his front door, so why did he not put Reeva in his car and go?.
Strangely 54 seconds after the call to netcare, Oscar answers the phone call from Pieter Baba and tells him "everything is fine"?.
What exactly was he doing when he should have been taking Reeva to hospital?, answering the phone to baba shouldn't have been high on his list of priorities.

And why did he say "everything is fine"?

Oh. Wait. He was out of his wits with terror.
Oooops. Forgot. He felt unsafe and vulnerable.
That statement just blows my mind.

 

[TorisMom003]

Why do you think he was abusive? And why do you think he planned and murdered her?

OP has a history of being abusive, not to just past girlfriends, but to strangers on the street as well. OP has shown that he has a mean temper and uses his gun when things don't go the way he feels they should. The texts simply add to that.

I believe that OP planned and did murder Reeva because she was no longer willing to be controlled. Reeva, the day after she was murdered, was standing up for women that were victims of abuse. If OP thought that she might say something about her own relationship (with him) and how he treated her at times, then that could be just another slap against him to his "adoring fans" and sponsors. Then there is also the jealousy issue.

MOO

ETA: When I say planned, I don't mean a day or more ahead of time. I mean as soon as OP got there and things started to go south (yet again) and Reeva had had enough.

 

[Carol70]

Now I am completely confused. I understand that OP called Netcare and was told to bring Reeva to the hospital, which would be consistent with OP brining Reeva down and rushing her to the car. But then he asked Stander to call the ambulance, did Stander actually call the ambulance? Did he change his mind and decided to wait for paramedics and give her first aid ie trying to open her airway (see Dr. Stipp's testimony) instead of rushing to the hospital?

From what I recall from the WO testimony ( can never remember his name), he claimed that he was told by Standers daughter that OP asked her father to drive Reeva to the hospital and he said NO, he would rather call an ambulance?

 

[steveml]

Don't get me wrong. I believe that he was abusive and murdered Reeva intentionally. I just don't believe that he murdered her in a blind rage. I believe that he was very clear headed about what he did.

Thanks, that's interesting. So, premeditated in the standard way that we're used to hearing about.

 

[minor4th]

OP has a history of being abusive, not to just past girlfriends, but to strangers on the street as well. OP has shown that he has a mean temper and uses his gun when things don't go the way he feels they should. The texts simply add to that.

I believe that OP planned and did murder Reeva because she was no longer willing to be controlled. Reeva, the day after she was murdered, was standing up for women that were victims of abuse. If OP thought that she might say something about her own relationship (with him) and how he treated her at times, then that could be just another slap against him to his "adoring fans" and sponsors. Then there is also the jealousy issue.

MOO

So it's a feeling you have rather than particular evidence that convinces you.

 

[Carol70]

Plus the fact he asked STANDER to take Reeva to hospital in the car. Stander refused and suggested they wait for paramedics/ambulance. Bizarre request from Oscar . . .

Why would that be bizarre...I sure he would have felt relief to have someone else drive considering the state he was in. It doesn't mean he wasn't going to travel with.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

It would be interesting to know, is there anyone who believes that OP intentionally killed Reeva, but agrees with any part of his affidavit?

If we go off the presumption that he lied, it would be far more sensible to create a story and change only a few critical parts.

Once on the witness stand the least you have to remember, the less likely you are to trip yourself up.

Most of the theories I've heard so far in favor of prosecution have refuted almost every single part of the affidavit.

Just a thought.

Apart from stating the obvious that he did indeed shoot her I think that he will have definitely based it some truthful elements with embellishments and plausible excuses for some things that he may or may not have done .
For instance him shouting out "get out of my house " that could have been put in there because he did in fact shout it but not at the phantom intruder but just in case someone had heard him .He may well have said that to Reeva .
Changing his statement to say he went out for two fans could have been a ploy to buy him time to allow Reeva to get into the toilet .
Working out what one thinks is true is the tricky bit .
Assuming of course it didn't happen just as he states
Another old saying the devils in the detail . Figuring out why the defence was at pains to have Reeva on the right of the bed that night when the crime scene photo's make it appear on the left doesn't add up ,his case on the face of it would have been more plausible even to a sceptic like me if he had been sleeping on the right as usual .
Roux was the one who pointed out that Reeva had stayed on the 12th as well as the 13th so it seems odd her slippers were not nearer the right side of the bed.


I

 

[steveml]

I don't think this argument would stand up as OP could easily have hit his alarm button, left by the bedroom door which was very near the bed and left the house. He did not need to chase down an imaginary intruder. That would not be the most sensible course of action. I wonder if you would feel the same if there had been an intruder in the toilet cubicle and after shooting to kill it was found to be an unarmed juvenile.

There's a lot of alternative action OP could have taken - anything would have been better than what he did.

The details regarding how SA look at imminent threat (even though there was no actual intruder) seem to be consistent within the few SA lawyer websites we've looked at.

 

[Carol70]

So either Oscar didn't in fact tell Stander to phone an ambulance, or he did and Stander chose not to.

Very strange that Stander would chose not to phone an ambulance until he comes into contact with other people, and very interesting that he tells Baba to "go" and call an ambulance, did stander or his daughter not have a phone with them, or is it that they just wanted baba out of the way?.

"Stander then ordered Baba, who says he didn’t enter the house, to go and call the police and an ambulance", the guard said.

Is it on record that he called Stander asking him to call an ambulance or did he call him to tell him to get to his house immediately?

I don't hold much credence to any articles that came out shortly after the shooting but there could be a tiny element of mixed truth in this one.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707#.UzSKZycaySM

 

[TorisMom003]

So it's a feeling you have rather than particular evidence that convinces you.

It's that the evidence does not match his story. That neighbors heard a woman screaming. That neighbors heard two set of gun shots. That OP did not follow the advice given to him about taking Reeva to the hospital. It's all of the things added up together about this case.

Look, OP can tell whatever story he wants to since he is the only living person that was involved that night. He can claim anything that he wants to. The problem is that his claims and his story have to match the evidence and make sense. So far, they don't. I don't buy that 5 different witnesses heard wrong concerning a woman screaming. I don't buy that everyone (cops, witnesses, state lawyers, everyone) is lying to railroad OP. I don't buy that this is some big conspiracy that was set up just to get OP, no matter what kind of celebrity he is.

MOO

 

[steveml]

Apart from stating the obvious that he did indeed shoot her I think that he will have definitely based it some truthful elements with embellishments and plausible excuses for some things that he may or may not have done .
For instance him shouting out "get out of my house " that could have been put in there because he did in fact shout it but not at the phantom intruder but just in case someone had heard him .He may well have said that to Reeva .
Changing his statement to say he went out for two fans could have been a ploy to buy him time to allow Reeva to get into the toilet .
Working out what one thinks is true is the tricky bit .
Assuming of course it didn't happen just as he states
Another old saying the devils in the detail . Figuring out why the defence was at pains to have Reeva on the right of the bed that night when the crime scene photo's make it appear on the left doesn't add up ,his case on the face of it would have been more plausible even to a sceptic like me if he had been sleeping on the right as usual .
Roux was the one who pointed out that Reeva had stayed on the 12th as well as the 13th so it seems odd her slippers were not nearer the side of the bed.


I

Thanks. The sleeping side of the bed doesn't look too good, as I guess any change in normal routine would be if you'd killed somebody.

Still, that's something he's gonna have to deal with. I guess even if defense produce a medical certificate to validate this, people will then suggest it had been manufactured.

 

[james83]

Is it on record that he called Stander asking him to call an ambulance or did he call him to tell him to get to his house immediately?

I don't hold much credence to any articles that came out shortly after the shooting but there could be a tiny element of mixed truth in this one.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707#.UzSKZycaySM

Yes it's in his affidavit.

 

[Cherwell]

Why would the key not be in easy reach? After all, the gun was right there where OP could easily grab it. I don't know of anyone that would lock their bedroom door and then put the key somewhere where it would be difficult to get to, unless of course they are trying to keep someone in the room.

Who knows why but what I do personally know from experience is every single time I have needed to find car keys, bedroom keys etc in a hurry, they are amazingly never where I previously left them

Surely you keep it to hand in case of a fire?

 

[Carol70]

Why do you think he was abusive? And why do you think he planned and murdered her?

I also want to know....considering his arrogance and the celebrity he clearly enjoyed, I can't think of one reason why he would throw that all away for a girl he was going out with for 3 months and could just as easily have dumped if he didn't want her in his life anymore. That really doesn't make any sense to me at all.

 

[TorisMom003]

Thanks. The sleeping side of the bed doesn't look too good, as I guess any change in normal routine would be if you'd killed somebody.

Still, that's something he's gonna have to deal with. I guess even if defense produce a medical certificate to validate this, people will then suggest it had been manufactured.

A medical certificate to validate which side of the bed OP slept on? Really? Perhaps the reason people would suggest that it had been fabricated is because who in the hello would have a medical certificate that would validate which side of the bed they slept on.

 

[kaos]

Is it on record that he called Stander asking him to call an ambulance or did he call him to tell him to get to his house immediately?

I don't hold much credence to any articles that came out shortly after the shooting but there could be a tiny element of mixed truth in this one.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707#.UzSKZycaySM

Were the previous security visits to OP's house ever testified to or were they inadmissable?