Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[minor4th]

Oscar never made that statement. His affidavit reads like he forgot that Reeva was even there, he was so out of his mind with terror. He just grabbed the gun and went for it. He NEVER pondered waking Reeva so the two of them could go downstairs to safety.

Note that my post you quoted also says this:

Or at least he has laid out allegations that suggest that - it was dark, the bedroom door was locked, he was on his stumps, he was enveloped in terror...

 

[Gavel Rash]

I can see it now, he is going to say Reeva took the keys out of the bedroom door, walked to the toilet and locked herself in - just to take a pee - all in pitch blackness.

Oscar is well versed in Rugby terms and I suggest at this time he may be at the bottom of a ruck in a 'stacks on' situation by a bunch of heavy weighted evidence contrary to the 'believable'' statement, he has pertained happened.

 

[minor4th]

Why did Roux add in OP's trial affi that he spoke with RS on his way to retrieve the fan/s? Putting her in the bed at that time helps OP, but proving he knew she was awake within a minute or two of shooting her dead seems worse for him than him thinking she was asleep and nowhere near the toilet.

He didn't say he spoke to Reeva on his way to retrieve the fans. He said that he had spoken to her "shortly before" which could mean anything. We'll have to await his explanation.

 

[minor4th]

my thoughts exactly. ......with his fingers down her throat. good golly.

You might have missed this, but the doctor explained that he was trying to open her airway and give her rescue breaths.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Such a strange thing to grab to stem blood flow...plastic bags? Why would they have not grabbed tea towels or paper towels? Or him carry her with towels around her from upstairs bathroom? Plastic absorbs nothing....but it does stop that pesky blood staining the travertine! Imagine the cost of replacement all those stained tiles! was this the thinking?

I thought the same until a doctor in some discussion the other day stated that to stop bleeding out you should try and put pressure on with plastic, small wounds can be sealed with a credit card or similar and large, by plastic bags or cling film.....the theory some medical schools are saying is that towels and swabs encourage bleeding out.
I thought it mad at first but having thought a bit more it does make sense.

 

[jay-jay]

Couple of things I will quickly chip in with ..

1. If it has been found in the post mortem and forensics that Reeva had actually gone for a pee, then she would've (by the time OP had faffed around moving fans about, etc, as his version of events states) flushed afterwards by then, surely .. and I'm having trouble working out how he didn't hear the toilet cistern flush?

2. Am also having trouble with the 'feeling vulnerable' thing in terms of being perfectly ok with sleeping with the doors wide open .. I think that even I would feel uncomfortable sleeping like that, so how is it that he .. supposedly somewhat paranoid about being burgled .. had no problem whatsoever sleeping like that?

3. I found the WhatsApp communications between them really worrying .. the fact that there were 'only' 4 sets of concerning communications between them means absolutely nothing. It's the fact that they were even there which is concerning .. the content of them were classic, text book, types of discussions you get within a controlling, abusive relationship. This '90 %' loving relationship that Roux has been trying to portray is a complete red herring because in those types of relationships it is fairly typical for the bulk of it to be perfectly happy and normal (although I would actually dispute the 'normal' bit because actually, what I am seeing is an obsessive relationship, not a normal, loving one). I've read a lot of messages around the net saying 'oh, everyone has arguments' .. but these are not just arguments, there is something quite specific about the content of them.

4. With regard to the blood spatter on the wall in the bedroom, I'm pretty sure I heard the blood spatter expert say that it wasn't significant because it was due to aterial spurt when OP carried Reeva through the bedroom on his way out from the bathroom then down the stairs (you have to pass through the bedroom to get to the stairs). I'm also pretty sure though, that I also heard that there was blood 'inside' the duvet where it was crumpled up on the floor .. someone asked about that earlier in the thread, and I do remember it being said during the trial too, and wondered how it could possibly have got onto a bit which was folded underneath it and so which couldn't have been caused by any blood spatter. It wasn't pursued any further at the time it was mentioned though, so I've no idea how it got there.

 

[Interested Bystander]

He says he carried two fans back into the bedroom. What is the likelihood that he carried them in with his back to the room because if he didn't even dim light from outside would have highlighted the bed and surroundings. So a man without his prostheses on, backed across the balcony carrying a standard fan, deposits it and then goes out to collect the second fan, returns again, going backwards, places the smaller fan against the wall in a fairly restricted place, never having glanced around whilst doing this, then closes the sliding doors, blinds and curtains. Obviously we don't know in which order the fans were brought in but I cannot see that it matters. The mind boggles.

 

[lisasalinger]

It would be interesting to know, is there anyone who believes that OP intentionally killed Reeva, but agrees with any part of his affidavit?

If we go off the presumption that he lied, it would be far more sensible to create a story and change only a few critical parts.

Once on the witness stand the least you have to remember, the less likely you are to trip yourself up.

Most of the theories I've heard so far in favor of prosecution have refuted almost every single part of the affidavit.

Just a thought.

Thanks for bringing this up, I think it's a really valid question. Below in red I have stated the exact elements that I am in agreement with at this point in time.

16.4 On the 13th of February 2013 Reeva would have gone out with her friends and I with my friends. Reeva then called me and asked that we rather spend the evening at home. I agreed and we were content to have a quiet dinner together at home. By about 22h00 on 13 February 2013 we were in our bedroom. She was doing her yoga exercises and I was in bed watching television. My prosthetic legs were off. We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way. She had given me a present for Valentine’s Day but asked me only to open it the next day.

I think they probably were in the bedroom at 10pm. Not sure what they were doing, but they could have been there. I agree that she gave him a present which he hadn't opened

16.5 After Reeva finished her yoga exercises she got into bed and we both fell asleep.

16.6 I am acutely aware of violent crime being committed by intruders entering homes with a view to commit crime, including violent crime. I have received death threats before. I have also been a victim of violence and of burglaries before. For that reason I kept my firearm, a 9 mm Parabellum, underneath my bed when I went to bed at night.

I agree that he likely kept his gun next to him when he went to sleep at night. Not sure exactly where but somewhere close by. And I do believe he primarily owned it for safety purposes

16.7 During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.

16.8 I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.

I agree there are no burglar bars on the bathroom window... nor are there bars on any of his windows. I agree that there were ladders outside, they were under the bedroom window. I agree that he has mobility on his stumps

16.9 I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.

16.10 I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.

16.11 I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.

I believe the bathroom window was open. I agree that the toilet door was closed.

16.12 It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.

I agree that he did not have his prosthetics on, as the ballistics evidence supports that.

16.13 I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.

I agree that he fired shots at the toilet door and I agree that he shouted.

16.14 When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.

I agree that he yelled for help from the balcony or somewhere close by

16.15 I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.

I agree that he used the cricket bat on the door and panels broke. I believe that Reeva was slumped over. I believe that she may have been alive when he reached her because her mouth was clenched down on his hand. I'm a little undecided right now as to exactly when she died but I don't think it was on the stairs. I think it was sooner.

16.16 I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander (“Stander”) who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. (Why not just call the ambulance or police directly?) I phoned Netcare and asked for help. I went downstairs to open the front door.

I agree that he pulled her out in to the bathroom. I agree that he called Stander and Netcare

16.17 I returned to the bathroom and picked Reeva up as I had been told not to wait for the paramedics, but to take her to hospital. I carried her downstairs in order to take her to the hospital. On my way down Stander arrived. A doctor who lives in the complex also arrived. Downstairs, I tried to render the assistance to Reeva that I could, but she died in my arms.

I agree that he carried her down the stairs. I agree that Stander arrived. I agree that a doctor arrived and that he tried to render assistance in that doctor's presence

 

[minor4th]

I'm sorry if I missed your previous requests - I do just scan posts sometimes when I am limited on time.

I'm saying Oscar has stated that he did not believe that he could get him and Reeva out the bedroom safely and quickly enough to avoid being shot by the bad guy he thought was in the toilet. Or at least he has laid out allegations that suggest that - it was dark, the bedroom door was locked, he was on his stumps, he was enveloped in terror...

I am completely unaware that Oscar has stated that he did not believe that he could get him and Reeva out of the bedroom safely. It would be great to have a link to this statement.

Please read the entire post. The part in bold informs the prior sentence.

 

[Gavel Rash]

I thought the same until a doctor in some discussion the other day stated that to stop bleeding out you should try and put pressure on with plastic, small wounds can be sealed with a credit card or similar and large, by plastic bags or cling film.....the theory some medical schools are saying is that towels and swabs encourage bleeding out.
I thought it mad at first but having thought a bit more it does make sense.

Makes sense...and under the circumstances medical aid with whatever is the given, no doubt just hard to fathom with the gaping head wound with bits of brain matter falling out ...trailing down the stairs.
I thought I also read that the body was covered with plastic bags...as if Oscar could not bear to witness what he had done similar to his reactions in court ear covering etc. the ear covering would also have been something the DT told him to do so that he did not get swayed by the truth from witnesses.

 

[nastasya]

Murderous intent means you mean to commit murder - it doesn't mean you intend to commit self defense.

Maybe blind people should be allowed to spray bullets in the public square because, who knows, maybe every noise they hear is a potential burglar?

The premise the defense is proposing is nothing short of idiotic.

Can you cite a definition of murder, or self-defense, in the SA law that would allow for moving from one room to another and shooting somebody multiple times who is unarmed and non-threatening in any way?

 

[Interested Bystander]

Not that my post you quoted also says this:

I cannot find anywhere that he says the bedroom door was locked. I am missing vital information and don't know where to start looking for it. Was it something Roux said? I know he piped up at times saying that Oscar will say etc.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Hypothetically, OP was only in imminent danger because he moved himself into the room where he thought the perceived danger might be.

There is no definition of imminent danger that includes being 2 passages away, in a different room with two exit doors, holding a loaded 9 mm.

That's not imminent danger by anybody's definition, except maybe a desperate defense lawyer.

Yes I don't buy his version at all.
He states he shouted for Reeva to phone the police and told the imaginary burglars to get out of the house .
Why wouldn't she reply to that ? Defence will allege it was because when she heard him shout out she didn't reply because she misunderstood and now thought that intruders were in the house and she would be in danger . Defence probably think job done for reasonable doubt .......
I think not !!
If she didn't reply under that premise then she would be as quiet as a mouse
Particularly when she could her someone plodding towards her into the bathroom.
This is his mistake IMO ,he states in his statement that when he came into the bathroom and didn't see anyone he heard movement in the toilet so shot the hell out of it .
He can't have it both ways either she would have shouted back in reply to him when he shouted or she would have stayed as quiet as a mouse.
Can't wait to hear the fairytale from the defence on this .

 

[james83]

I can only see photos of keys in toilet door so far and it appears maybe there are another two keys on the ring and one in loo door? Bedroom, bathroom, toilet?

There is at least one other key on the ring, also i am under the impression that there isn't a bathroom door going by diagrams of the room?, just a toilet door.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I cannot find anywhere that he says the bedroom door was locked. I am missing vital information and don't know where to start looking for it. Was it something Roux said? I know he piped up at times saying that Oscar will say etc.

Confused as well. I thought the BATHROOM door was locked, reason which the defendant (plz note I am not referring to him as I would like :floorlaugh: ) allegedly proceeded to shoot whomever was locked inside and then to break the door with a cricket bat.

 

[Duchy]

just heard on sky news that he is expected to spend several day in the witness box.

Possible questions...

Why didn't he wake Reeva?

Why did he fire 4 shots?

 

[minor4th]

I cannot find anywhere that he says the bedroom door was locked. I am missing vital information and don't know where to start looking for it. Was it something Roux said? I know he piped up at times saying that Oscar will say etc.

It's in either his bail affidavit or plea statement.

 

[lisasalinger]

Just curious - of those of you who are sure that Oscar was abusive and killed Reeva in a fit of rage, who also believes that Alice LaViolet was correct in her analysis of Travis as an abuser based also on a few text messages?

This really is a good question. People's communications can be highly subjective. Things can easily be misinterpreted both ways. So I'm trying to be very objective about what we've heard thus far.

Now obviously in a situation where somebody pointedly threatens another and they end up injured or dead... or in the event that there is a significant pattern of malicious messages over the course of time or over the course of the specific incident, you would have to add some weight to them.

I re-watched the State's closing from Tuesday and you may think I'm crazy but it was more interesting to me the 2nd time around. (No, I'm not smoking anything)

I really have to sign off of WS so I can finish up my day 15 blog post before tonight's (tomorrow's) testimony. I just really got the impression that there is something more in those messages... something that is going to come out when Oscar is on the stand. They are all logged in to evidence now. Nel doesn't need to bring up any new witnesses (which he can't anyway), he just needs to confront Oscar with it.

 

[steveml]

Hypothetically, OP was only in imminent danger because he moved himself into the room where he thought the perceived danger might be.

There is no definition of imminent danger that includes being 2 passages away, in a different room with two exit doors, holding a loaded 9 mm.

That's not imminent danger by anybody's definition, except maybe a desperate defense lawyer.

I put it to you :smile: ...if he thought Reeva was still in the bed...

Could he have been going towards danger in order to protect Reeva?

Better to tackle an intruder in another room away from Reeva?

You can keep suggesting your definition of imminent danger, but it will still be wrong. All that matters is what SA and Judge Masipa recognise. That isn't going to change.

SA Law (as we currently understand)

If you have the belief that a person would injure you or someone close to you and even possibly kill you as a result of this attack, you may use any and all means to defend yourself.
The nature of the threat only has to be imminent, and you do not need to be able to see your attacker.

 

[jay-jay]

There is at least one other key on the ring, also i am under the impression that there isn't a bathroom door going by diagrams of the room?, just a toilet door.

Yes, my understanding is that there was a door on the toilet cubicle (which is within the bathroom) but not on the bathroom itself.