Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[wishIknewmore]

Just been doing some research into "double tap" and watched some YT videos about it. It is a shoot to kill technique, first shot to immobilise second to kill. Special forces always use it so that a terrorist won't stay standing to shoot again after a first shot. You wait for (it is a fraction of a second) for the gun to rebound back to original position you first fired, which unbelievably it does, and shoot again. It all happens so quick. I now understand what Mangena meant when he said he would expect if OP had fired with a double tap both shots would have hit around the same area and if he fired two double taps, then all 4 around the same area. And it could be very important because OP is claiming he only wanted to scare the intruder which is why he shot low, so if the defence use the double tap explanation that would be contradictory as it means he probably did mean to kill whoever was behind the door, and in which case the prosecution has their "intent" for murder to stick. jmo

Aha-- thank you for taking this to the next level!

 

[luvmygarden]

When looking at the bedroom and bathroom plan (another thread with plans and drawings - if they are correct), it would be about 3-m distance and one corner from the end of the bed to the bedroom door in order to exit with my gun and girlfriend but it would be likely more than 6-m distance plus two corners in order to get to the bathroom, stand in front of the closed door and shoot, it simply does not seem rational. On the other hand, some people do not act as expected.

If he heard a noise in the bathroom and had to go down the hall and turn into the bath how did he know he would find a closed bathroom door and not a intruder with a gun standing right in front of him? I have many questions in my mind how he could take that chance especially with how fearful he claims to be. Flight would be my reaction if I only heard a sound Fight would be my reaction if I came face to face. The toilet door was locked.

 

[nastasya]

Yes because it was all a tragic accident. It's absolutely WAS NOT possible that Visagie and his daughter had a screaming match at 5am in the morning because she wanted to go visit a boyfriend and he didn't want her driving around the farmlands at that time of the morning and then in a rage put his gun through his bedroom window and fired shots at her car as she attempted to leave the property. It's inconceivable that a father would shoot dead his own daughter. Parents simply don't kill their own children in fits of rage. Just like it appears it's absolutely NOT possible that OP killed Reeva accidentally. Umm ok.

And the witness timelines and testimony is currently quite shoddy, what was heard at just past 3 by burger and others?. Shots..then what was heard at 3.17 which the state claim was a shot to Reevas head that killed her? Give or take that's 15 minutes of 4 very drawn out gunshots since only 4 shots were fired according to expert testimony.

I think we can agree to disagree and have nothing really further to debate as we are just going to go around in circles. Have a lovely evening.

I wasn't debating.

I was pointing out the factual error in the statement that Visagie was acquitted. He wasn't. He wasn't prosecuted.

The killing of Reeva Steenkamp was not an accident. The killer did not accidentally pull the trigger four times. The killer was fully aware his gun was aimed at a person behind the door. According to his own affidavit, the killer left the bedroom and advanced towards Reeva who was locked in the bathroom.

Why?

Because according to the killer's affidavit he heard Reeva going to pee. And according to 5 witnesses, they heard a woman screaming before gunshots. The precise timing is irrelevant. If Reeva screamed before the gunshots, or if she was arguing with the killer, then the killer knew who he was about to kill.

Again, I'm not debating. Just pointing out the facts.

 

[nastasya]

:rumor:

I heard that a big deal was made regarding the plakkies (sandals) because OP knew that Reeva never walked around without them on. If they were at the side of the bed, this may be used as one of the things in OP's defense to determine that she would have been in bed at the time.

Seriously???

Wow.... if that's the best they've got they know they're in deep trouble. If OP claims he noticed her shoes by the bed but didn't notice her body missing from the bed he's going to look even more ridiculous than he already does.

 

[soozieqtips]

Seriously???

Wow.... if that's the best they've got they know they're in deep trouble.

If OP claims he noticed her shoes by the bed but didn't notice her body missing from the bed he's going to look even more ridiculous than he already does.

BBM - very good point!

 

[nastasya]

Sorry but OP is in my opinion very disabled without his prosthetics. He is a very fit man but without his prosthetics I believe what I have read about him feeling vulnerable at night in bed in his stumps. The fasted man in no legs ran with blades on, not on his stumps. I too have worked with disabled people and have witnessed how frightened they can become in certain situations. Until it is proved otherwise I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he feels very vulnerable without his prosthetics at night in bed.

Does playing rugby and running without his legs prove otherwise?

Pistorius went down in school folklore when, during a rugby match, a player from the opposite team tackled him. ‘His legs came off in the boy’s arms,’ said Shroeder. ‘But he carried on running over the line, I think the other kid still has nightmares.’

OP was not disabled from running. Jumping or kicking, yes. Running, no. And when he was holding the 9 mm he was neither disabled nor vulnerable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2193556/Oscar-Pistorius-story--impossible.html

 

[Feynman]

I did not mean for it to sound like they were locked in by a third party - only that unlocking the door was another step to take to get away safely.

But if he really thought an intruder was about to come out of the toilet shooting at him and Reeva, it makes total sense to me that he would think the only sure way to protect himself and Reeva would be to get his gun and get in a position to shoot the burglar before the burglar could come out shooting.

Try to look at it from the perspective that he really did believe that an intruder was about to come out of the toilet room shooting. If he really believed that, then all of his actions make sense to me.

He does not know at this point that anyone is in the toilet. From the trial plea: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which was not fitted with burglar bars." Nothing about the toilet yet - just the bathroom. What does he do? He retrieves his gun on the other side of the bed, reverses, then makes a sharp right and goes charging down the hall to the bathroom screaming. Not just announcing that he's there to the "terrifying" intruder, who could be lurking right around the corner with a loaded gun, but basically yelling "one two three, here I come, make sure you aim down the hallway!" (From the affadavit: "On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.") Remember, it's only after he gets to the bathroom that the toilet comes into play: "I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom." This is closer to total nonsense than total sense to me.

 

[MeeBee]

He does not know at this point that anyone is in the toilet. From the trial plea: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which was not fitted with burglar bars." Nothing about the toilet yet - just the bathroom. What does he do? He retrieves his gun on the other side of the bed, reverses, then makes a sharp right and goes charging down the hall to the bathroom screaming. Not just announcing that he's there to the "terrifying" intruder, who could be lurking right around the corner with a loaded gun, but basically yelling "one two three, here I come, make sure you aim down the hallway!" (From the affadavit: "On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.") Remember, it's only after he gets to the bathroom that the toilet comes into play: "I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom." This is closer to total nonsense than total sense to me.

It may seem like total nonsense. But keep in mind that OP has done this before twice he asked Sam Taylor if he heard an intruder and went looking for him with a gun. Same thing with the washing machine, grabbed his gun and went to look for the intruder.

 

[Trooper]

He does not know at this point that anyone is in the toilet. From the trial plea: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which was not fitted with burglar bars." Nothing about the toilet yet - just the bathroom. What does he do? He retrieves his gun on the other side of the bed, reverses, then makes a sharp right and goes charging down the hall to the bathroom screaming. Not just announcing that he's there to the "terrifying" intruder, who could be lurking right around the corner with a loaded gun, but basically yelling "one two three, here I come, make sure you aim down the hallway!" (From the affadavit: "On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.") Remember, it's only after he gets to the bathroom that the toilet comes into play: "I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom." This is closer to total nonsense than total sense to me.

and all in pitch black darkness , too .. pitch black in the bedroom, grabbing the gun, pitchblack in the passage, and pitch black in the bathroom.. he doesn't turn any lights on until his next trip back to the bedroom.

 

[nastasya]

and. .. 'Reeva , call the police!!'....


in all his other 'experiences ' with being burgled, and violence and all this stiff, previously, he never called the police.


in fact, the police were once called on HIM. which is where Oscar gets his crankup with W.O. Botha..

He was so angry and irritated with the police on the Vaal River drive, who pulled Darrin over for speeding and co incidentally spotted Oscars gun on the car seat, and emptied the chamber 'you touched my gun!!. you touched my gun"... that he reloaded it, while being driven off by Darrin and fired it thru the sunroof..

but on THIS night, he claims he instructed Reeva to call the police..

moonshine.

must have been quite the meeting of minds and eyes, when W.O. Botha rocked up as a responder to Oscars house.

What you said in your post is very telling.

He claims he told Reeva to call the police... twice. Once before the shooting and once after.

He claims he told Reeva to call the police when the only thing he heard was Reeva using the toilet.

And yet after he actually shot Reeva, he didn't call the police. Nor did he tell Stander to call the police. It wasn't until Baba arrived (after OP told him everything was fine) that Stander told Baba to call the police.

 

[Trooper]

If Oscars reaction to events is normal, and credible, 'he hears a noise in the bathroom'.. . how does Dr Stipp stack up in the norm stakes??

he hears gunshots , terrified and terrifying screaming from a woman, then gunshots, a man and a woman screaming , screaming.. he tries to get thru to security, and the flying squad , he thinks children are being murdered, he pulls on some outdoor clobber, goes outside.. goes RIGHT into the kill zone,.. unarmed.. could be crossfire from a fleeing bandit, doesn't faze Dr Stipp.. goes right up to the front door..

how nuts is that??

Interesting to hear and see that Dr and Mrs Stipp , with 3 small children in the house, sleep with their balcony doors open, . no guns or bats or whatnot in the photos of their bedroom..

 

[Trooper]

What you said in your post is very telling.

He claims he told Reeva to call the police... twice. Once before the shooting and once after.

He claims he told Reeva to call the police when the only thing he heard was Reeva using the toilet.

And yet after he actually shot Reeva, he didn't call the police. Nor did he tell Stander to call the police. It wasn't until Baba arrived (after OP told him everything was fine) that Stander told Baba to call the police.

as it turned out, Baba didn't either. the only one who eventually called the police was Dr Stipp. He bypassed security once having dealt with Standar.

 

[nastasya]

I did not mean for it to sound like they were locked in by a third party - only that unlocking the door was another step to take to get away safely.

But if he really thought an intruder was about to come out of the toilet shooting at him and Reeva, it makes total sense to me that he would think the only sure way to protect himself and Reeva would be to get his gun and get in a position to shoot the burglar before the burglar could come out shooting.

Try to look at it from the perspective that he really did believe that an intruder was about to come out of the toilet room shooting. If he really believed that, then all of his actions make sense to me.

Have you ever been in the military? Police? Have you ever played paintball or laser-tag?

If you know where your opponent is, and your opponent doesn't know where you are, you have a HUGE advantage.

You simply position yourself behind a corner from which you know you opponent must emerge.

This does two things. It shields you from being shot, and gives you a TREMENDOUS advantage of blasting your opponent when he appears in the open.

Under no circumstances would you ever give up the advantage of you knowing where your opponent is when he doesn't know where you're at. That's ridiculous.

 

[BabaJ]

It may seem like total nonsense. But keep in mind that OP has done this before twice he asked Sam Taylor if he heard an intruder and went looking for him with a gun. Same thing with the washing machine, grabbed his gun and went to look for the intruder.

That is true that there may be a pattern with respect to his reaction ie fight vs flight but then he behaved out of ordinary not checking with his partner.

 

[wishIknewmore]

What happened to OP's leg?

 

[nastasya]

It may seem like total nonsense. But keep in mind that OP has done this before twice he asked Sam Taylor if he heard an intruder and went looking for him with a gun. Same thing with the washing machine, grabbed his gun and went to look for the intruder.

What's total nonsense is the claim that his actions are done from a state of fear. It's more like he has a chip on his shoulder and can't wait to find an excuse to use his gun to kill somebody.

Even if his story is true, it's still premeditated murder.

 

[Trooper]

Samantha didn't testify that Oscar grabbed a gun on the two occasions he thought he 'heard a noise in the bathroom'...

I believe that when he writes out this statement re that noise, he is replaying his successful former experiences of 'hearing that noise' but with a totally different outcome than the one he is confronted with..

and.. you know.. Samantha didn't question his hearing of that noise.. she testified she didn't hear it.. . Oscar must have thought no one else would question it either. why not use the same phrase?? .. and oddly, since he heard it before, he says, in the middle of the night, why not immediately, and without further ado put the biggest bars in Pretoria over that window?

A real worry wart would have stationed bucket of boiling oil right at the bathroom window. and of course, would never leave it open and the blinds half way down. And go to sleep.

 

[Viper]

and all in pitch black darkness , too .. pitch black in the bedroom, grabbing the gun, pitchblack in the passage, and pitch black in the bathroom.. he doesn't turn any lights on until his next trip back to the bedroom.

Here is the hallway passage that he had to go down, terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/hallway-from-bedroom-to-bathroom.png

And here is the bathroom passage that he had to go down, even more terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...er-bullet-casing-and-wood-splinters-found.png

And after navigating all of that in the pitch dark he has to turn right and blindly face the armed murderous intruder, who is in the toilet, and fire four shots (accurately) at him killing him dead. It's fantastic! No worries.

 

[Suthrnqt]

It may seem like total nonsense. But keep in mind that OP has done this before twice he asked Sam Taylor if he heard an intruder and went looking for him with a gun. Same thing with the washing machine, grabbed his gun and went to look for the intruder.

Yes, he asked Sam Taylor, before he went looking for an intruder. He never asked Reeva anything because she wasn't in the bed.

 

[nastasya]

Here is the hallway passage that he had to go down, terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/hallway-from-bedroom-to-bathroom.png

And here is the bathroom passage that he had to go down, even more terrified:

http://juror13lw.files.wordpress.co...er-bullet-casing-and-wood-splinters-found.png

And after navigating all of that in the pitch dark he has to turn right and blindly face the armed murderous intruder, who is in the toilet, and fire four shots (accurately) at him killing him dead. It's fantastic! No worries.

Those are the passages that Reeva ran down, terrified, and even more terrified, before heading into the toilet area and closing the door as a last resort.

It makes total sense that's where somebody would flee if there were a madman in the bedroom with a gun or a cricket bat and the bedroom door was locked.

The reverse makes no sense.

You don't run towards somebody in the dark who may be a threat to kill you.