Trial Discussion Thread #13 - 14.03.25, Day 15

[G.bng]

Sorry but OP is in my opinion very disabled without his prosthetics. He is a very fit man but without his prosthetics I believe what I have read about him feeling vulnerable at night in bed in his stumps. The fasted man in no legs ran with blades on, not on his stumps. I too have worked with disabled people and have witnessed how frightened they can become in certain situations. Until it is proved otherwise I will give him the benefit of the doubt that he feels very vulnerable without his prosthetics at night in bed.

Then you can't have watched the full documentary because the first part is about OP as a kid and how having a brother caused him to try to excel even more and there are home videos snippets of him running around on stumps, and his mother and I think grannie, telling about his multiple sportive accomplishments.

 

[K.T]

This leads me onto my next post about his character with relation to rule breaking and relationships with women.

The immaturity, the controlling treatment of his previous girlfriends, a lack of respect for authority, anger issues, some possible instability/irrational patterns of behavior; his background of entitlement both from being a sports celebrity and part of extreme wealth of the “prominent” Pistorius clan are all troubling points. Nothing I am quoting from articles and testimony is telling individually significant, yet in total it may be...

Pistorius has shown aggressive, controlling behavior with women and girlfriends:

- He has shown aggression about his girlfriends openly. Samantha Taylor testimony recalls how he often shouted at her and in front of others. Yelling at Melissa at the other 'door' incident.

- Pistorius punches out doors when he is angry at women. Cassida Taylor-Mmemory says he in his fight with his ex-girlfriend, Melissa, he was angry and used “vulgar” language to throw girlfriend and friends out of his house house. She says his behavior was “aggressive and unreasonable.” As he was “furiously” trying to close the door, he “punched” the outside wooden door causing one of the panels to hit Memmory on the leg. It’s really interesting to note he’s strong enough to use his hands to punch out a panel of door with enough force to for the wood to graze a woman’s leg. He still trains as a boxer, his macho idol was fighter Mike Tyson. (NB: hard punching of doors with hands is important to think about in terms of the hitting the toilet door, pulling out door panels, and other broken items in house…)

- http://ewn.co.za/2014/02/12/EWN-Exclusive-Taylor-Memmory-speaks-on-Oscar-Pistorius
I also read that the fight with girlfriend Melissa might have been about jealousy because he kissed another woman but unfortunately I can’t remember the source.

- He acts recklessly over girlfriends, in his autobiography he relates how broke the speed limit racing after another disagreement with a girlfriend.

- His aggression at two women at a concert, drunkenly pushing and shouting, is characterized by them as behaving in an “angry”, “misognymistic” manner.

- He appears to others as controlling, jealous with girlfriends. Maddie Sims in People magazine:
Sims had seen Pistorius grow agitated if free-spirited Steenkamp was late to meet him; if she wore her hair in a ponytail or was dressed too casually; if she asked a waiter too many questions.

- He tried to start a fight with Mark Batchelor and Quintin de Burgh about Samantha Taylor. He threw girlfriend Melissa and her friends out of his house, in an angry outburst. Dating teenagers, Samantha was 17 when they started having a relationship, can be seen as wanting to be the dominant, controlling partner. Even in her testimony at 19, she still seemed very young. He texted Steenkamp twice when she was on her coffee date with Warren Lahoud, prompting him to ask about problems in her relationship. Though she denied any problems, imo meeting a caring, interested ex-boyfriend two days before her death is revealing.
http://www.ibtimes.com/who-warren-lahoud-reeva-steenkamp-met-ex-boyfriend-days-death-1123499

- He seems to be immature and controlling in his relationships with women. Professional athletes have been in many well-documented instances of domestic violence and often characterized from their celebrity bubble and training/coaching structure to have emotional issues and show regressive behaviour. The relationship with younger sister Aimee at the trial seems slightly like mothering too.

ESPN column about Pistorius and other a few other US domestic violence athlete incidents http://espn.go.com/olympics/story/_/id/10602126/troubling-questions-oscar-pistorius-case

MOO

 

[G.bng]

Not only did OP "walk toward danger" he sportingly gave the armed bad guy/s his location by yelling, "Get out my house!"

How very British of him, you know, never shoot a sitting duck, old boy, sort of thing!

 

[minor4th]

He does not know at this point that anyone is in the toilet. From the trial plea: "I heard the bathroom window sliding open. I believed that an intruder or intruders had entered the bathroom through the bathroom window, which was not fitted with burglar bars." Nothing about the toilet yet - just the bathroom. What does he do? He retrieves his gun on the other side of the bed, reverses, then makes a sharp right and goes charging down the hall to the bathroom screaming. Not just announcing that he's there to the "terrifying" intruder, who could be lurking right around the corner with a loaded gun, but basically yelling "one two three, here I come, make sure you aim down the hallway!" (From the affadavit: "On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police.") Remember, it's only after he gets to the bathroom that the toilet comes into play: "I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom." This is closer to total nonsense than total sense to me.

Ok, I read the plea explanation again - so yeah, he heard a noise in the bathroom that he thought was an intruder, believing Reeva was in bed. Scared, feeling vulnerable, believing he couldn't get Reeva and him out his bedroom quickly and safely he grabbed his gun and headed for the bathroom to defend himself and Reeva. Hears noise from toilet and believes intruders are in there and are about to come out and shoot him and Reeva.

I still don't find that inherently nonsensical or impossible if he really believed there was a burglar in his bathroom.

There are parts of it I can't quite accept without further explanation but on whole it is a believable scenario to me, certainly not impossible, and the state certainly hasn't given us evidence of even a plausible alternative.

 

[minor4th]

Then you can't have watched the full documentary because the first part is about OP as a kid and how having a brother caused him to try to excel even more and there are home videos snippets of him running around on stumps, and his mother and I think grannie, telling about his multiple sportive accomplishments.

Yes, his sporting accomplishments were as he was growing up - he did not compete in athletics on his stumps! It was his mother talking about his sporting accomplishments and other achievements and he was 14 years old at the time. She died a year later.

And the only videos of him doing anything on his stumps was as a little toddler.

 

[K.T]

Motive/Intent:
Steenkamp and Pistorius affair did not seem as stable and loving as he claims. He moved into the relationship fast, immediately after leaving Taylor and people note how “intense” it seemed. There is gossip that Steenkamp and Pistorius broke-up unhappily at Christmas. They were both are ambitious, assertive and image conscious. Unlike his other girlfriend’s, Steenkamp had a growing media profile, often an issue for a highly competitive partner.

In terms of timing, Steenkamp met up with her ex-boyfriend Warren Lahoud two days before the shooting and one week later she was “excited” to be premiering on reality television. These can be stress factors in a relationship. Insecurity over previous partners and a girlfriend on national television, to a narcissistic, paranoid personality like Pistorius, especially on Valentine’s Day, is an extremely loaded series of events, and he has shot before when he feels his authority is threatened.

Though she said to others that she was happy with Pistorius, Steenkamp had been in a previous emotionally abusive relationship and was planning a talk about domestic abuse. I speculate that Steenkamp may have been slowly putting signs together of a controlling person. That night could have lead to a discussion of their relationship in terms of Steenkamp’s recent coffee with ex-boyfriendcausing friction. Leaving, or even emotionally pulling away from a partner, is one of the classic common precursors to intimate violence. Issues with possible (emotional or real) cheating, competitiveness, attentiveness, are all reasons to why there was a loud, violent disagreement.

Valentine’s day, in one study, has been shown to get no more than usual rate of calls to domestic abuse hotlines, but holidays or significant days often see an increase in domestic incidents. People wonder how a short relationship could lead to homicide but put together the timing of stress triggers that night, quite a busy relationship, with an impulsive personality who likes his using guns, its not hard to see an escalating incident. Most female killed by boyfriends or husbands are shot dead during an argument. Pistorius also could show (like many other homicide cases) instant, real remorse and grief from the emotional escalation that lead to a partner shooting. MOO

phew, sorry that all was longer than I thought! I wrote all of it (before the prosecution revealed the four sad txts from Reeva) while waiting to get on Websleuths. Promise other posts will be more replies and shorta! :crazy:

 

[G.bng]

<respectfully snipped to address this one point>

I watched the video today and it shows a toddler Oscar wobbling around on the beach on stumps - not running, not skiing or playing football or tennis like the other kids. He took up sports when he was older and fitted properly with prosthetics.

I haven't seen anything at all that shows OP is fast and agile while maneuvering on his stumps as an adult. In fact his ex testified that he has to hold on to things for balance sometimes and has limited mobility on his stumps.

Ooooops again and very sorry! It must be another video because I have seen a snippet, admitted a brief snippet, of OP running around on stumps with his brother and other kids aged somewhere around 7-9, not a toddler. I will try and find it in my browsing history.

 

[Forensics]

Motive/Intent:
Steenkamp and Pistorius affair did not seem as stable and loving as he claims. He moved into the relationship fast, immediately after leaving Taylor and people note how “intense” it seemed. There is gossip that Steenkamp and Pistorius broke-up unhappily at Christmas. They were both are ambitious, assertive and image conscious. Unlike his other girlfriend’s, Steenkamp had a growing media profile, often an issue for a highly competitive partner.

In terms of timing, Steenkamp met up with her ex-boyfriend Warren Lahoud two days before the shooting and one week later she was “excited” to be premiering on reality television. These can be stress factors in a relationship. Insecurity over previous partners and a girlfriend on national television, to a narcissistic, paranoid personality like Pistorius, especially on Valentine’s Day, is an extremely loaded series of events, and he has shot before when he feels his authority is threatened.

Though she said to others that she was happy with Pistorius, Steenkamp had been in a previous emotionally abusive relationship and was planning a talk about domestic abuse. I speculate that Steenkamp may have been slowly putting signs together of a controlling person. That night could have lead to a discussion of their relationship in terms of Steenkamp’s recent coffee with ex-boyfriendcausing friction. Leaving, or even emotionally pulling away from a partner, is one of the classic common precursors to intimate violence. Issues with possible (emotional or real) cheating, competitiveness, attentiveness, are all reasons to why there was a loud, violent disagreement.

Valentine’s day, in one study, has been shown to get no more than usual rate of calls to domestic abuse hotlines, but holidays or significant days often see an increase in domestic incidents. People wonder how a short relationship could lead to homicide but put together the timing of stress triggers that night, quite a busy relationship, with an impulsive personality who likes his using guns, its not hard to see an escalating incident. Most female killed by boyfriends or husbands are shot dead during an argument. Pistorius also could show (like many other homicide cases) instant, real remorse and grief from the emotional escalation that lead to a partner shooting. MOO

phew, sorry that all was longer than I thought! I wrote all of it (before the prosecution revealed the four sad txts from Reeva) while waiting to get on Websleuths. Promise other posts will be more replies and shorta! :crazy:

Hi K.T

I read with interest all your posts and they are articulate and plausible. Well done!! Don't worry about length of posts, the more information the better as far as I am concerned.

 

[MeeBee]

I just feel like to claim someone that is missing both legs is not disabled is just a plain biased denial of reality. Of course he is disabled.

 

[Forensics]

Ok, I read the plea explanation again - so yeah, he heard a noise in the bathroom that he thought was an intruder, believing Reeva was in bed. Scared, feeling vulnerable, believing he couldn't get Reeva and him out his bedroom quickly and safely he grabbed his gun and headed for the bathroom to defend himself and Reeva. Hears noise from toilet and believes intruders are in there and are about to come out and shoot him and Reeva.

I still don't find that inherently nonsensical or impossible if he really believed there was a burglar in his bathroom.

There are parts of it I can't quite accept without further explanation but on whole it is a believable scenario to me, certainly not impossible, and the state certainly hasn't given us evidence of even a plausible alternative.

If Oscar is indeed telling the truth, the guilt of his negligence will be far greater punishment for him than the justice system would ever be.

 

[minor4th]

I just feel like to claim someone missing both legs is not disabled is just a plain biased denial of reality. Of course he is disabled.

Right? I cannot comprehend how anyone can say he's not disabled and didn't feel vulnerable at night without his legs. I mean if being a double amputee is not disabled, then what the heck is??

 

[minor4th]

If Oscar is indeed telling the truth, the guilt of his negligence will be far greater punishment for him than the justice system would ever be.

No doubt he will suffer a lifetime.

 

[Carol70]

Thanks. I need to go back and read this plea statement again because what you're saying is different than what I thought I remembered :waitasec:

Now I'm confused about the sequence of his account, and I thought I had it sorted out.

Will comment further after I read the statement again ....

Please update when you can because I don't recall him saying he heard the window slide open??

Please can someone link to the trial plea, I have a copy of the affidavit and think I need to do a comparison because I'm getting as confused as hell now

 

[minor4th]

Please update when you can because I don't recall him saying he heard the window slide open??

Please can someone link to the trial plea, I have a copy of the affidavit and think I need to do a comparison because I'm getting as confused as hell now

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210458767/Oscar-Pistorius-plea

He says when he was bringing the fans in he heard the bathroom window sliding open and that's what made him believe a burglar was coming in through the bathroom window which was not fitted with burglar bars.

 

[minor4th]

Ooooops again and very sorry! It must be another video because I have seen a snippet, admitted a brief snippet, of OP running around on stumps with his brother and other kids aged somewhere around 7-9, not a toddler. I will try and find it in my browsing history.

Do let me know if you find it because I have been searching everywhere for videos - and it's gotten so difficult because now there are millions of trial videos out there clogging my google searches

 

[Carol70]

Yes I agree he may well have felt vulnerable without his prosthetics...that seems logical. So if you follow Oscar's version, you would have to ask would a vulnerable person (albiet armed) put themselves in a position of coming face to face with an athletic, two legged intruder that could well have been armed themselves. At that stage he would not have know that they were locked in the toilet only that they were in the bathroom. Moreover, his shouting out to Reeva to call for help would certainly have alerted the intruder to Oscar's location and intent. If his version was true, Oscar took a great risk in putting himself in such a position.

I completely agree with you. However, I think we forget that OP was more than likely capable of moving about his house in the pitch dark and knew the layout of the bathroom intimately, just as we all are in our own homes but an intruder could not possibly know what was happening past the entrance to the bathroom and the layout of the room certainly giving OP the upper hand, if there was an intruder of course.

 

[MeeBee]

I also remember when OP was denied the chance to run in the Olympics because his blades gave him an advantage over able bodied runners how people scoffed at the idea that a man without legs could have any kind of advantage over people with legs. My how the tides have turned!

 

[Carol70]

I just feel like to claim someone that is missing both legs is not disabled is just a plain biased denial of reality. Of course he is disabled.

I completely agree. To dismiss the fact he has no legs as irrelevant is utterly astounding to me.

 

[Carol70]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210458767/Oscar-Pistorius-plea

He says when he was bringing the fans in he heard the bathroom window sliding open and that's what made him believe a burglar was coming in through the bathroom window which was not fitted with burglar bars.

Ahh yes thanks!!! I thought it was a contradiction from him but in his plea he was just elaborating that the noise he stated he heard in his affidavit was the window sliding open.

 

[Carol70]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/210458767/Oscar-Pistorius-plea

He says when he was bringing the fans in he heard the bathroom window sliding open and that's what made him believe a burglar was coming in through the bathroom window which was not fitted with burglar bars.

I wonder if the witnesses mentioned on page 5 were the ones not called to the stand??