Trial Discussion Thread #16

[Interested Bystander]

No we don't. I was talking about Mangena's testimony. Someone has already corrected me though, I misunderstood what he said.

Perhaps you did not hear the Mrs Burger's evidence then.

 

[Trooper]

I had a theory about this myself but daren't post it but will now .
We know the first shot hit her hip . She would then have slumped down and made a noise as well as screamed . OP could have heard that and assumed she had crashed down on to the toilet hence the second shot missing her because he had aimed at the toilet but she had actually crashed on to the magazine rack .
He then fired two more shots close together when realising where she was because of the extra screening . Just a thought I had any view on that ?

suits me.. Oscar wasn't firing randomly .

 

[MeeBee]

Perhaps you did not hear the Mrs Burger's evidence then.

No, I heard it. Well, I read about it. I just always take witness' recounting of gunshot numbers and such with a grain of salt as these things are hard to remember and they're always so varied. For instance, Mrs. Stipp heard three and three, which is inconsistent.

I was using Mangena's testimony only as his would be more fact and science based and I was wrong about what he said. I was already corrected, admitted it, and we move on.

 

[nastasya]

I'm not entirely sure it could.

Once the 2 shots have been fired, and the cricket bat has knocked a piece out of the door, OP can see Reeva.
He could possibly panic (as above) but he has no need to risk shooting through the door again, as he can shoot directly at Reeva through the gap with shots 3 and 4.
He needn't have even used shot 4, shot 3 at the head and Reeva would have be silenced.
The situation above would necessitate OP having already planned to kill Reeva.

The gap in the door would have been a small vertical slot above the door handle, enough to see her having fallen.

Shot 3 at the head might have missed and hit her arm, only a few inches away. Shot 4 hits her head.

I'm not sure why you think this scenario neccessitates that OP had already planned on killing her.

First shot is accident, he can't get in the door to get her, she's freaking out screaming, threatening him with police, etc., and he panics and shoots her to stop her screaming.

At some point he knows he shot her, it's just a matter of when, and what he did after.

What is hard to explain is why he changed the trajectory of shots after the first shot and aimed downward, and aiming low to begin with. He was already on his stumps.

 

[patCee]

Michelle Burger woke by screams, shouts for help, then man's voice calling help x 3. She described 4 shots, 1 then pause followed by 3 shots.

Dr Stipp testified 3 loud bangs, gunshots, 3 or 4 screams. Whilst on phone to security he heard 3 more loud bangs, gunshots he thought, then man shouting help 3 times.

Sorry but my link showed youtube pics and I'm not sure if that's allowed so deleted them.

Just adding to my previous post - It's possible that M Burger was woken by the screams Dr Stipp heard. Maybe Stipp missed the 1st shot heard by M Burger when he went for the phone, then they both heard another 3 shots. They both heard a man calling help x 3.

 

[MeeBee]

Just adding to my previous post - It's possible that M Burger was woken by the screams Dr Stipp heard. Maybe Stipp missed the 1st shot heard by M Burger when he went for the phone, then they both heard another 3 shots. They both heard a man calling help x 3.

But Mrs. Stipp also said she heard three in the second volley.

 

[steveml]

Then the "I thought it was an intruder" story would be a total wash. As it stands right now, since he did shoot all 4 times at Reeva through the door, there are folks that believe he may be telling the truth. If any of those shots had not gone through the door first, then NO ONE would believe his story and there is no way in hello that he could possibly talk his way out of a 25 year prison sentence.

MOO

Perceived intruder - OP shoots 4 times, doesn't know who's in toilet - uses cricket bat to break open door.

That's a simple summary of OP's account. I'm not convinced there's much more to it yet.

I've not heard one person suggest that he didn't shoot Reeva 4 times through the door. That would be pointless as that fact already appears in his statement.
The burning question is did he know it was Reeva behind the door?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I'm not entirely sure it could.

Once the 2 shots have been fired, and the cricket bat has knocked a piece out of the door, OP can see Reeva.
He could possibly panic (as above) but he has no need to risk shooting through the door again, as he can shoot directly at Reeva through the gap with shots 3 and 4.
He needn't have even used shot 4, shot 3 at the head and Reeva would have be silenced.
The situation above would necessitate OP having already planned to kill Reeva.

As Nel has stated plans can be made in minutes and seconds .
He would want to avoid the door handle ,we can just never know and may not know for sure even when we have heard the defence .

 

[soozieqtips]

Yes, I saw it happen, at post 80, but didn't correct it because I didn't think it was that important and didn't point it out because I find it petty to point such things when it's really not hurting anything, though I know broken quotes bothers some. I hope I helped too in correcting your assessment of "the source of the problem." :seeya:

I don't think it's petty to point it out because broken quotes cause a problem when someone's post is attributed to the wrong username. It's not their words or opinions but it looks like it is because of the broken quote. It causes confusion, which is why I think the mods fix them when they can.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Just adding to my previous post - It's possible that M Burger was woken by the screams Dr Stipp heard. Maybe Stipp missed the 1st shot heard by M Burger when he went for the phone, then they both heard another 3 shots. They both heard a man calling help x 3.

Very likely. I have woken with a start on a number of occasions and for what seemed no reason; only to be asked the next morning whether I heard such and such last night.

 

[Cherwell]

it looked feminine to me.. a kind of claret colour..
but then.. I don't know any blokes who would have a cosmetic bag at home....

I mean.. she was the visitor..

come to think on it, I don't know any blokes who have a cosmetic bag at all.
perhaps a culture gap..

They call them washbags. But as you say, it'd only be used for travelling; rest of the time it'd probably be in a drawer somewhere.

Hmmm, thinking about it though, OP probably would use one daily for going to the gym or training or whatever. Unless he kept all his gear there?

 

[patCee]

But Mrs. Stipp also said she heard three in the second volley.

I suppose the court will need to decide whether the accounts are similar enough even though 1 shot is not accounted for by the Stipps

 

[Viper]

What I'm saying is the heart can continue to beat for many minutes after you stop breathing/brain death. Brain death is death, but the heart doesn't always stop immediately.

If I am following you correctly, some (OP and the DT) will insist that Reeva was alive for all of those minutes until she died downstairs, her heart still beating but her lungs not breathing oxygen. Even in the absence of massive pools of blood that should have been seen if her heart was pumping blood out of her five very large wounds (two to the head alone, two to the arm - entry and exit wounds).

On well, not correct in my opinion, and I guess we will have to wait and see how they and the prosecution handle this. Nice chatting with you about this, thanks!

 

[whiterum]

Preventing RS from speaking?

OP certainly took full charge of the situation, all on his todd until Dr Stipp arrived and confirmed she was gone, then he nipped upstairs.

 

[MeeBee]

I suppose the court will need to decide whether the accounts are similar enough even though 1 shot is not accounted for.

I don't think it will matter much. Like I said, asking a witness to recount how many shots they heard is a tricky thing as they aren't usually taking a conscious tally at the moment and are almost never completely consistent when there are multiple gunshots involved.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I have been puzzled about the blood along the staircase wall .
I thought the police specialist said that he thought the blood on the bottom of the stair handrail was caused by Reeva's hair . For that to be the case her right side would have to be pressed against him so how come so much blood spurt on the left .
Really can't figure this.

 

[DebinGA]

IIRC Capt. Mangena said position of shots indicated OP was likely on his stumps shooting from his shoulder, not from his waist as he would have if wearing his legs. He said OP shot RS from no closer than 60 cm (2 ft.), but did he say how far back OP could have been? Roux probably wants OP as far away as possible, but do we know where OP has claimed he was as he shot?

 

[steveml]

But Mrs. Stipp also said she heard three in the second volley.

That's correct.

Mr Stipp. Three loud bangs, that followed each other quickly, almost on top of one another. Bang-bang-bang.
Later heard three more bangs, almost identical bang-bang-bang.
Doesn't know if bangs were gun or cricket bat.

Mrs Stipp. - Thought she heard gunshots. Wasn't sure of number.
Later heard three more shots. Doesn't elaborate any further.

 

[kittychi]

Yup ..

.. and anyway, is it really the case that they would advise someone to bring them in themselves in a car? I know that the supposed reason for this is because it would've taken longer for an ambulance to reach the scene than it would be for him to take her to the hospital in a car, but I would've thought that usually the advice would be not to move the patient in case you end up doing even more damage. Would our ambulance service in the UK ever advise someone who has been extremely seriously injured, to bring them in in the car? There are many places in this country that are quite remote, but I can't ever see a scenario when our ambulance service would actually say to someone to move the patient, pick them up, shove them into a car and drive hell for leather to the hospital.

The emergency services will have recordings of those calls though, and what was said, so he would be incredibly stupid to have lied about that bit .. but it will be interesting to see if he did or not. But, if that really is their procedure over there, then I find it really quite bizzare.

IMO, he minimized her injuries if it is true that Netcare told him to move her.

I think his statement about Netcare is true because it is something that he knows can be confirmed.

 

[MeeBee]

If I am following you correctly, some (OP and the DT) will insist that Reeva was alive for all of those minutes until she died downstairs, her heart still beating but her lungs not breathing oxygen. Even in the absence of massive pools of blood that should have been seen if her heart was pumping blood out of her five very large wounds (two to the head alone, two to the arm - entry and exit wounds).

On well, not correct in my opinion, and I guess we will have to wait and see how they and the prosecution handle this. Nice chatting with you about this, thanks!

No, she died and mostly bled out in the toilet room, her heart continued to make faint attempts at beating until it finally stopped downstairs. The prosecution has handled it and has already attributed some of the blood spatter downstairs to arterial spray so her heart still must have been beating, even if it was only a few beats as the heart died. For them to say otherwise would be contrary to their own expert. I don't know if either the DT or PT is pushing the issue very hard, or if they are, I missed it.