Trial Discussion Thread #16

[MeeBee]

I have been puzzled about the blood along the staircase wall .
I thought the police specialist said that he thought the blood on the bottom of the stair handrail was caused by Reeva's hair . For that to be the case her right side would have to be pressed against him so how come so much blood spurt on the left .
Really can't figure this.

I believe it was because OP was holding Reeva with her head over the handrail and her head wound was dripping blood along the way. Blood spurt on left could be from hip, as I believe she was hit in an artery there. Or her arm if it was hanging just so.

 

[seattlechiquita]

I made note of the order of the shots when I watched the testimony.

Bullet hole A = hip shot
Bullet hole B = missed her........hit the bathroom wall behind her and possibly caused the damage to her back
Bullet hole C = can't determine if this was the 3rd or 4th shot, can't determine if this was the arm or head shot
Bullet hole D = same as bullet hole C

One things that has always bothered me is: for someone who was
a) in the throes of terror washing through him [insert LOL here]
b) in the pitch dark of night
c) shooting through a closed wooden door on his stumps

the defendant had pretty damn good aim. I would imagine someone shooting under the circumstances above would have missed a good deal of shots. :moo:

 

[Cherwell]

That's correct.

Mr Stipp. Three loud bangs, that followed each other quickly, almost on top of one another. Bang-bang-bang.
Later heard three more bangs, almost identical bang-bang-bang.
Doesn't know if bangs were gun or cricket bat.

Mrs Stipp. - Thought she heard gunshots. Wasn't sure of number.
Later heard three more shots. Doesn't elaborate any further.

I thought Dr Stipp stated that in his opinion they were definitely gunshots. Roux tried but failed to get him to say it might have been bat strikes.

 

[whiterum]

There was a cosmetics bag on the edge of the tub in the bathroom that was zipped up. Now, was that Reeva's or did OP have one as well?

I am pretty sure it was said at the BH that a cosmetic bag belonging to Reeva was found in the bathroom.

 

[G.bng]

Dr Stipp, who testified as to Oscars position in the hallway, said Oscar had his fingers down her throat.. he didn't offer an opinion as to why this would be so . nor did he offer an opinion as to why Oscar would have his left hand on Reevas groin.. he merely described Oscars position in the hallway .

he did say he removed Oscars fingers .. Oscar didn't do that himself.

Stipp did offer an opinion of why OP "had two fingers in her mouth" (Stipp never said down her "throat" which seems has been adopted on the blog for more force) which was that he thought OP was trying to open Reeva's airway, just as you are taught to do with any first aid course. And Stipp didn't say he "removed" OP's fingers either, although maybe that was the reason for him trying what he called a "jaw-lip manoeuvre", to free them since rigor causes extreme contractions, although the way I read it, he did that simply to try to free up Reeva's airway himself. True Stipp didn't explain why OP had his hand on Reeva's right groin, but imo at least, as Reeva had a gunshot wound which iirc hit the artery there, it would be logical for OP to put pressure there to stem the bleeding even if it was clearly hopeless, because I am not sure any of us can imagine even the most deprived sicko trying to sexually assault or kill a moribund woman in front of everyone!

The following is the transcript of all I could find of the medical testimony Stipp gave in his evidence in chief to Nel:

Stipp: I said, I'm a doctor can I maybe be of assistance, can I help? And then she said yes and she showed me inside to the bottom of the stairs where there was a lady lying on her back on the floor.

Nel: Yes, what happened then?

Stipp: I went nearer, as I bent down I also noticed a man on her left kneeling by her side. He had his left hand on her right groin and and his right hand two fingers in her mouth. And I remember the first thing he said when I got there was that... he said, "I shot her. I thought she was a burglar and I shot her"

Nel: Does that look familiar?

Stipp: Yes, em... that is the lady that I tried to assist

Nel: And in terms of her position?

Stipp: Unchanged... except for the head lying to the left, when I arrived it was straight up. Em.. I think because Oscar tried to open her airway.

Nel: And... but apart from that she's lying there exactly as you found her?

Stipp: Yes.

Nel: Will you just turn the page. Did you see that?

Stipp: Yes. It's still the same person position also the same.

Nel: So what did you do then. You got there, you saw this person... and what happened then?

Stipp: The next thing I did was I tried to assist her so I tried to open the airway and to look for any signs of life. She had no pulse in her neck, she had no peripheral pulse, she had no breathing movements that she made. She was clenching down on Oscar's fingers as he was trying to open her airway. I tried to do a jaw-lip manoeuvre, to open the airway, but it's very difficult with the clenching down, and all during that time there wasn't any signs of life that I could see. I opened her right eyelid, the pupil was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky, in other words it was already drying out. So to me it was obvious that she was mortally wounded. I looked at the rest of the body and I noted that she had a wound in her right thigh, also a wound in her right upper arm, as I looked further I saw there was blood and hair and what looked like brain tissue intermingled with that to the right (...inaudible word...) right area of the skull.

Nel: Is that what one can see on paragraph 1.3.3

Stipp: Yes, that's right, on the top of her skull that's where I saw the brain tissue... and the blood.​

 

[Interested Bystander]

IIRC Capt. Mangena said position of shots indicated OP was likely on his stumps shooting from his shoulder, not from his waist as he would have if wearing his legs. He said OP shot RS from no closer than 60 cm (2 ft.), but did he say how far back OP could have been? Roux probably wants OP as far away as possible, but do we know where OP has claimed he was as he shot?

I think he claimed he shot from the end of the short corridor that leads directly into the bathroom itself, ie as you are looking at the washbasins, OP claimed he was to the right of them.

However, it was determined that it could have been anything between 60cm and 2.5 metres. Further away than 60 cm there would be no gunshot residue on the door and there wasn't. I think 2.5 metres was from the wall where the bath is i.e. tha maximum distance. I would have to look at the photos again but I am not sure his claim that he shot from the bathroom access point near the basins would give the right trajectory. "Rushes off to look for photos LOL"

 

[steveml]

The gap in the door would have been a small vertical slot above the door handle, enough to see her having fallen.

Shot 3 at the head might have missed and hit her arm, only a few inches away. Shot 4 hits her head.

I'm not sure why you think this scenario neccessitates that OP had already planned on killing her.

First shot is accident, he can't get in the door to get her, she's freaking out screaming, threatening him with police, etc., and he panics and shoots her to stop her screaming.

At some point he knows he shot her, it's just a matter of when, and what he did after.

What is hard to explain is why he changed the trajectory of shots after the first shot and aimed downward, and aiming low to begin with. He was already on his stumps.

There was a large hole in the door, big enough to reach/lean through for the key. He would have needed to purposely make this hole to fit in with his statement, shoot Reeva in the head through the door etc. etc.

The point I'm making is this is quite a huge plan to have thought up in seconds/minutes, after having shouted for help.
This is a plan so good that it fits entirely with his statement - there is no glaring hole...yet.

 

[Viper]

No, she died and mostly bled out in the toilet room, her heart continued to make faint attempts at beating until it finally stopped downstairs. The prosecution has handled it and has already attributed some of the blood spatter downstairs to arterial spray so her heart still must have been beating, even if it was only a few beats as the heart died. For them to say otherwise would be contrary to their own expert. I don't know if either the DT or PT is pushing the issue very hard, or if they are, I missed it.

BIB. We covered this today I believe. The heart does not have a role in the arterial spray in this case. That was caused by OP holding her and moving at the same time as it puts pressure on parts of her body, moving blood. The autopsy, she died after 2-3 breaths, he didn't say she died after 2-3 breaths but her heart kept beating for 6 minutes, that would be nonsensical. She died and her heart stopped beating after 2-3 breaths.

There is a reason that the DT wants her to be "alive" until OP got to the bottom of the stairs.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Pretoria isn't a sort of jungle outpost.. its the National Capitol.. it has twice the population of my National Capitol, Canberra.. it has all the bells and whistles, .. all the mod cons.. :giggle:

things work there ...

The UK is the same, however it doesn't stop people dying due to human error or system failures. Not saying that happened here, just noting.

 

[steveml]

IIRC Capt. Mangena said position of shots indicated OP was likely on his stumps shooting from his shoulder, not from his waist as he would have if wearing his legs. He said OP shot RS from no closer than 60 cm (2 ft.), but did he say how far back OP could have been? Roux probably wants OP as far away as possible, but do we know where OP has claimed he was as he shot?

From memory I'm not sure they could determine the longer distance, so it could be as far back as the back wall of the room.

I'd have to look at the plans properly as not too sure how much clearance there is directly opposite.

 

[MeeBee]

BIB. We covered this today I believe. The heart does not have a role in the arterial spray in this case. That was caused by OP holding her and moving at the same time as it puts pressure on parts of her body, moving blood. The autopsy, she died after 2-3 breaths, he didn't say she died after 2-3 breaths but her heart kept beating for 6 minutes, that would be nonsensical. She died and her heart stopped beating after 2-3 breaths.

There is a reason that the DT wants her to be "alive" until OP got to the bottom of the stairs.

The pathologist did not say all of that, it's an assumption made on this board and it is a wrong one, IMO. That's not how the human body works. Any kind of pressure on a wound is not going to create the kind of pressure the heart will and cause arterial spray. It just cannot be. He didn't explicitly say it, because all those things will not necessarily show in an autopsy and Nel didn't ask him because it's not actually important to him. The blood splatter expert also didn't say this is arterial spray but it was probably just caused by pushing on the wounds. That too is nonsensical. There's only one thing that can cause arterial spray. And I'm curious why you think Roux is fighting the died downstairs thing? I haven't heard him argue the point particularly vehemently. He seems pretty on board with the death upstairs thing.

 

[Viper]

I believe it was because OP was holding Reeva with her head over the handrail and her head wound was dripping blood along the way. Blood spurt on left could be from hip, as I believe she was hit in an artery there. Or her arm if it was hanging just so.

The blood on the right side of his shorts is more consistent with him holding her head in his left arm and her (bloody) right hip in this right arm. So her feet would be closest to the railing. IMO

 

[MeeBee]

The blood on the right side of his shorts is more consistent with him holding her head in his left arm and her (bloody) right hip in this right arm. So her feet would be closest to the railing. IMO

But didn't the blood spatter expert attribute a trail of blood on the handrail to her hair grazing it?

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB. We covered this today I believe. The heart does not have a role in the arterial spray in this case. That was caused by OP holding her and moving at the same time as it puts pressure on parts of her body, moving blood. The autopsy, she died after 2-3 breaths, he didn't say she died after 2-3 breaths but her heart kept beating for 6 minutes, that would be nonsensical. She died and her heart stopped beating after 2-3 breaths.

There is a reason that the DT wants her to be "alive" until OP got to the bottom of the stairs.

Sounds like he thought she was already dead by the time he got there.

"And all during that time there wasn't any signs of life that I could see.

I opened her right eyelid, the pupil was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky,
in other words it was already drying out".

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/oscar-pistorius-trial-doctor-body-reeva-steenkamp

 

[G.bng]

Stipp testified she was biting down on his fingers Plus, you don't put your fingers down someone's throat!! To aid breathing, for clear airways, you merely check and/ or unfurl the tongue, to maintain clear airways!!

And as for breathing and circulation - recovery position. She was WELL beyond ANY point of recovery!! :-(

Stipp never said OP had his fingers down Reeva's throat, and as, according to Stipp, OP's fingers were being clenched by Reeva's teeth t'would be a bit difficult... unless that is OP has extra long prosthetic fingers too! And how do you "unfurl the tongue" without putting your fingers in the mouth ? Tongues can fall right to the back when limp, or contract violently backwards in a sort of curl and block the throat I've had that with a dog I had who suffered from seizures and I had to really struggle to get his tongue out sometimes.

 

[Gryffindor]

I had a theory about this myself but daren't post it but will now .
We know the first shot hit her hip . She would then have slumped down and made a noise as well as screamed . OP could have heard that and assumed she had crashed down on to the toilet hence the second shot missing her because he had aimed at the toilet but she had actually crashed on to the magazine rack .
He then fired two more shots close together when realising where she was because of the extra screening . Just a thought I had any view on that ?

That definitely isn't the case as the 2nd shot that missed was higher than the 1st. He'd assumed she was still upright, thus 2nd shot position looks like he's aiming for chest height. With the slumping onto magazine rack registering, or falling down, his 3rd and 4th shots are lower than the 1st. And 3 and 4 gradually, consistently decline. Aiming for head and chest area?

 

[Insp.Dots]

I thought the pathologist, Dr Saayman, said that she could only have taken two or three breaths after the head shot?

This is difficult because there's no record of him actually speaking - we've only got what people reported him to say.

ETA: Juror 13 who seems pretty reliable has that she "did not take more than a few breaths after suffering her head wound"

Yes that is how I see it, though another witness (sorry can't remember who) said he thought it likely RS heart had stopped going down the stairs from when the arterial spurts had stopped.

 

[Interested Bystander]

If I am following you correctly, some (OP and the DT) will insist that Reeva was alive for all of those minutes until she died downstairs, her heart still beating but her lungs not breathing oxygen. Even in the absence of massive pools of blood that should have been seen if her heart was pumping blood out of her five very large wounds (two to the head alone, two to the arm - entry and exit wounds).

On well, not correct in my opinion, and I guess we will have to wait and see how they and the prosecution handle this. Nice chatting with you about this, thanks!

Did not Stipp say he found no vital signs plus Steenkamp's eye was fixed dilated and the cornea was milky.

As far as I am aware, milkyness occurs when the heart stops beating, ie when blood is no longer reaching the cornea but its not something I know a lot about.

 

[DebinGA]

I believe it was because OP was holding Reeva with her head over the handrail and her head wound was dripping blood along the way. Blood spurt on left could be from hip, as I believe she was hit in an artery there. Or her arm if it was hanging just so.

RS's head back and chin up? Then OP laid RS face up on her back? And put his fingers in her blood-filled mouth to clear her airway? Riiiiiight.

 

[MeeBee]

RS's head back and chin up? Then OP laid RS face up on her back? And put his fingers in her blood-filled mouth to clear her airway? Riiiiiight.

I don't understand what you're saying?