bbm Just wondering, does anyone know what time the death certificate states as time of death? A person can actually be dead(no heartbeat, unresponsive, not breathing, no brain activity) quite awhile before a qualified medical professional is available to pronounce them as deceased at a specific point in time. My Dad was dead for over an hour from a burst abdominal aneurysm before the paramedics were allowed to stop trying to resuscitate him and he was pronounced dead.
Trial Discussion Thread #16
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bbm Just wondering, does anyone know what time the death certificate states as time of death? A person can actually be dead(no heartbeat, unresponsive, not breathing, no brain activity) quite awhile before a qualified medical professional is available to pronounce them as deceased at a specific point in time. My Dad was dead for over an hour from a burst abdominal aneurysm before the paramedics were allowed to stop trying to resuscitate him and he was pronounced dead.
It is the rhythm of the heart that creates the arc like arterial spray and in Reeva’s case it is not only on the stairs but over by the couch downstairs.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-blood-drenched-hair-left-trail-1.1664082#.UzsTeVcVHLQ informative article about blood stain testimony in OP trial.
In the above article: “Three of the four wounds – the one to her hip, arm and head resulted in her bleeding profusely. The wounds to the head and arm resulted in the spurting of blood, known as arterial spurt, he said.”
“Arterial spray - refers to the spurt of blood released when a major artery is severed. The blood is propelled out of the breached blood vessel by the pumping of the heart and often forms an arcing pattern consisting of large, individual stains, with a new pattern created for each time the heart pumps.” http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/blood/principles.html
People can be resuscitated 15 minutes after they stop breathing because their heart is still functioning. The following article: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_your_heart_still_beat_when_you_stop_breathing?#slide=15
I cannot find any info of arteries being compressed from being carried, time wise in Reeva’s case and time sequence that would make the most sense but cannot find any documentation of that.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-blood-drenched-hair-left-trail-1.1664082#.UzsTeVcVHLQ informative article about blood stain testimony in OP trial.
In the above article: “Three of the four wounds – the one to her hip, arm and head resulted in her bleeding profusely. The wounds to the head and arm resulted in the spurting of blood, known as arterial spurt, he said.”
“Arterial spray - refers to the spurt of blood released when a major artery is severed. The blood is propelled out of the breached blood vessel by the pumping of the heart and often forms an arcing pattern consisting of large, individual stains, with a new pattern created for each time the heart pumps.” http://www.forensicsciencesimplified.org/blood/principles.html
People can be resuscitated 15 minutes after they stop breathing because their heart is still functioning. The following article: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_can_your_heart_still_beat_when_you_stop_breathing?#slide=15
I cannot find any info of arteries being compressed from being carried, time wise in Reeva’s case and time sequence that would make the most sense but cannot find any documentation of that.
Insp.Dots
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Good point. Though I have no idea. I think it was the paramedics who officially declared her dead, but possibly Still was qualified to do this......will have a look.
Here is some info on wound ballistics:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/best-place-to-get-shot1.htm
http://health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/best-place-to-get-shot1.htm
Viper
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As a nurse you know the answer to your own question I am sure. :wink:
Regarding the video that you watched it was noted that the victim survived for some time, he was not dead in the video. Interesting the massive amount of bleeding in just a 15-30 seconds and from only one gunshot wound!
You are a nurse and have knowledge and experience that others do not. My reply to you was for our entire forum of people with likewise unique experiences and knowledge, so that we can all share understandings and information. The video is I believe a very useful learning tool related to the subject that we are discussing at present.
I dare say even I could target someone in that small room through the splintered part of the door... :moo:
http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/
Just been thinking about the press reports and the prosecution documents mentioning the clothes being a very important factor . Unless there were areas of them being torn I can't figure out what it could be . You don't suppose she could have been wearing trainers or some other form of footwear ? That would be too easy maybe so what is it about the clothes other than she appeared to be dressed ?
steveml
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It's so difficult trying to determine the length and time of Reeva's screaming as indicated by witnesses, without knowing the gap between the shots or the length of time between first and last gunshot.
I don't think the state realise just how much time we've spent on this :wink:
I'm more concerned about this than the actual number of shots, however the witness statements are all so vague regarding time passage from first to last gunshot.
Johan Stipp: heard screaming after gunshots (sounded like female).
Annette Stipp: heard lady screaming after gunshots (continued screaming didn't stop)
Estelle Van De Merwe: heard nothing immediately after gunshots, went back to bed, shortly afterwards she heard someone crying out loud, (thought it was a woman).
Michelle Burger: awoken by woman screams and calling for help.
Charl Johnson: awoken by woman's distressed voice.
I don't think the state realise just how much time we've spent on this :wink:
I'm more concerned about this than the actual number of shots, however the witness statements are all so vague regarding time passage from first to last gunshot.
Johan Stipp: heard screaming after gunshots (sounded like female).
Annette Stipp: heard lady screaming after gunshots (continued screaming didn't stop)
Estelle Van De Merwe: heard nothing immediately after gunshots, went back to bed, shortly afterwards she heard someone crying out loud, (thought it was a woman).
Michelle Burger: awoken by woman screams and calling for help.
Charl Johnson: awoken by woman's distressed voice.
screecher
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Seems the killer is beginning to break, although no apology given...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-slammed-broke-door-party.html#ixzz2xZq2HWeq
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...t-slammed-broke-door-party.html#ixzz2xZq2HWeq
I don't see the need for a plan.
OP's entire story might be legitimate except for this:
He only shot once the first time. Reeva fell to the floor, screaming in pain. He tried to get help and break down the door.
Then she threatened him with police, jail, screaming etc.
He panics and/or gets angry because she won't stop screaming and then he shoots her until he hits her head.
He rips the panels out with his hands after the final shots and drags her out.
I'm not sure what evidence, if any, contradicts this version.
Insp.Dots
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I was just trying to get you to reflect on what you had previously stated about Reeva's blood pools etc. I am in no way an expert but yes I have seen a lot in the way of critical injury, including a gun shot.
Thanks, but I didn't watch any video but can see why you have put it for others to see. As I said, I will just stick to the evidence we have.....that is more than enough for me!
Viper
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IDK. But I think it has something to do with the two holes in her t-shirt, lower right chest.
It's amazing how unconcerned OP was in venting his anger, verbally and physically, multiple times in public. Not hard to imagine him losing all control in private.
That's what I keep wondering about, I've heard nothing about what footwear RS had other than her slippers...
Yes we have known about them from the beginning but that could be argued away that that was what she put on for bed so I was thinking there must be something more that is not apparent to us yet .
Probably wrong though lol
Gavel Rash
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The conspiracy of evil is running wild here and although Oscar has committed an atrocious and probably intentional murder, IMO, he doesn't see it hat way himself. He truly believes his own story...it is for his own sanity that he does. The moment he pulled the trigger he was already committed. In may have been initially his whole intention to scare and intimidate the bejesus out of her. But he got more than he bargained for with the firebrand, headstrong, intelligent Reeva.
She wasn't going to acquiesce to his power and the ensuing rage that followed just continued to escalate with the screaming.
People who have been pscologically damaged...like Oscar whose limbless state was negated by his mother, whose dying words to him where that he was not bound by anything
It read: 'The real loser is never the person who crosses the finishing line last. The real loser is the person who sits on the side. The person who does not even try to compete'
..instilled an extreme & abnormal belief in his own hype. He was obsessive in his sport, his image, his goals, his accumulation of credibility as a real human, not some cripple. He could never come to terms with that. He spent his entire life making sure that no one could call him disabled.
This competitive obesession has him competing for our belief that he is truly innocent. That if he believes he did nothing wrong then we will too. The first shot shocked him. Hence the gap. I don't think he was actually siting her up. It's a small space and a guaranteed hit anyway. But that small hesitation speaks volumes about his mind. Because it was only a small hesistation. The idea of what he was doing left his mind completely after that shot..he had to keep going...he had to finish the race.
She wasn't going to acquiesce to his power and the ensuing rage that followed just continued to escalate with the screaming.
People who have been pscologically damaged...like Oscar whose limbless state was negated by his mother, whose dying words to him where that he was not bound by anything
It read: 'The real loser is never the person who crosses the finishing line last. The real loser is the person who sits on the side. The person who does not even try to compete'
..instilled an extreme & abnormal belief in his own hype. He was obsessive in his sport, his image, his goals, his accumulation of credibility as a real human, not some cripple. He could never come to terms with that. He spent his entire life making sure that no one could call him disabled.
This competitive obesession has him competing for our belief that he is truly innocent. That if he believes he did nothing wrong then we will too. The first shot shocked him. Hence the gap. I don't think he was actually siting her up. It's a small space and a guaranteed hit anyway. But that small hesitation speaks volumes about his mind. Because it was only a small hesistation. The idea of what he was doing left his mind completely after that shot..he had to keep going...he had to finish the race.
steveml
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I've got that one in dispute at present as it suggests 1 gunshot, a break and then 3 gunshots.
Estelle Van Der Merwe stated in her testimony that she awoke at 3.00am to four consecutive noises. Bang-bang-bang-bang.
What reason would a witness have to lie?
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Annette Stipp said it was 15 min
TorisMom003
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The ballistics expert has said, in court, that it had to in fact be one shot, a break and then three more. I don't understand why an experts testimony is being ignored.
By the way, how do we know that Van Der Merwe actually heard the gunshots as bang-bang-bang-bang and not OP hitting the door twice, the metal plate on the tub once and the tiles on the side of the door once? Of course this then means that OP lied and the cricket bat came first. Also, if Reeva was in fact still alive when he was carrying her down the stairs then the gunshots had to have come at a time closer to 3:17 am, which would put the gunshots second and cricket bat first.
MOO
But my point there was to correct your claim of "pitch dark"; it wasn't pitch dark in the bathroom (the PT has never claimed otherwise).
As to how difficult it is to fire such "perfect" shots, remember it's OP's house, he knows it well, he often went to the firing range and had a lot of practice with that 9 mm Parabellum, and he might have been firing firing from as close as two to three feet away (Mangena).
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