Trial Discussion Thread #16

[jay-jay]

I haven't accounted for these because I believe that he does have inexcusable issues regarding safety and recklessness. There is no way I could ever imagine myself doing what he did. I would have checked on my partner first, before anything.

That said, it doesn't give me carte blanche to suggest he stalked and killed a woman unless I believe in all likelihood that he did. That would be easy for me to do.

There is the possibility my opinion could change once OP takes the stand, we're only halfway through yet.

I haven't mentioned any of those things, I simply asked why you wouldn't have heard her in the two instances I outlined (i.e. the first one, flushing the loo and the second one, screaming out in pain from the first shot). That's all I asked .. why do you think he couldn't hear those two things, when he had been able to hear the bathroom window slide for a fair way away in another room? (in his version of events).

 

[Trooper]

It does work though doesn't it, irrespective of an extra fan, or speaking to Reeva?

If you're suggesting his defense team wrote his statement that's up to you.
I have a strong feeling the prosecution won't be claiming that.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong, as we all could.

is it possible to believe, that Oscar, having paid big gobs of money, ( or to be precise, Henke paid) to buy a dog that barks for him, that he would be let loose with a pen and paper and left to construct his OWN statement for the Bail hearing??

like.. they never checked it or went thru it word by word with a revocation of bail pending??


( not that I think they did a good job. it was mediocre work. but even so. )

of course the prosecution will state it, claim it and lay that to rest.. Roux made a performance of Darrin Fresco having an attorneys advice for his statement..

its perfectly normal.. to think they wont is irrational.

 

[BlueShoe]

In my mind, there are two important aspects that may determine the course of events:

1. For the Defense: The screams attributed to Reeva were actually Oscar's.

2. For the Prosecution: The first gunshots that Dr. Stipp heard were actually other, similar, sounds.

It is interesting that both of these depend on the interpretation of sounds. I wonder which one will seem more likely to the judge?

 

[Viper]

And again coming back to Oscar's story that the shots were first, he realises that it's probably reeva in there so shoudn't he ring an ambulance the moment she doesn't respond to him?, of course not, he'd rather run around for about 10 minutes apparently.

BIB. Where is it written in his affidavit and/or his plea explanation that he screamed like a girl and argued with himself loudly for 6, 8, 10, 15, or 17 minutes?

But obviously Roux is going to add that rather LARGE detail to the fairy tale. Shaking my head...

 

[wishIknewmore]

going on both of Oscars statements...

this is what he remembers as to the sounds he himself made and the meaning of those sounds.

1st... he 'yelled'.. get out, get out of my house.

2nd.. he 'yelled'.....Reeva , call the police.

3rd. he returns to the bathroom, 'calling' Reevas name.

4th. .. he goes to the balcony and 'screams' for help.

That's 2 yells, 1 calling, and 1 screaming for help.

He doesn't hear himself screaming like a woman , and at times, screaming like a man AND a woman, he doesn't hear himself do any of that .

Sounds of arguing, man and woman.. VDMewre... Oscar doesn't hear himself doing this.

gunshots, then screams, woman screaming, man screaming intermingled with gunshots.. Stipp. Oscar doesn't hear any of this. Doesn't hear himself screaming here at all. He hears nothing while he is firing...this is done, according to Oscar in a monk-like silence..

all up, and being generous to Oscar.. he uses his voice as a separate entity, in three modes ( yelling, calling, screaming )

11 words , in the speech pattern, yelling.

5 , just to be generous, callings of Reevas name..

then a episode of screaming for help.. ( mrs burgar says 3 helps.. Stipp says 3 helps . being generous again, throw in an extra screamed help = 4 helps , screamed

20 words..

witnesses testified to an argument that went on intermittently for about 40 mins.. prolonged screaming. terrified fearful screaming.. a woman screaming, a man screaming, a man calling for help help help.

Oscar.. who is, unarguably THE closest to all this verbalization, only hears himself speak a total of 20 words over the entire event. And only his own voice.. he hears no other voice, no separate human voice other than his own , at all, at any time.

the next human voice to enter into this scenario is Oscars, again, calling Johan Standar..

Oscars sequence of hearing a human voice is.. nothing., except his own until he hears Johan Standars voice on the phone after calling him.

so from the time he goes to sleep, the only human voice interaction Oscar has ( and I am leaving out his added extra of him stating in his 2nd go , that he spoke 'with' Reeva a few moments 'before'.. because, he doesn't say what he said, he doesn't say what she said, and he doesn't say 'before' what event.) is Standar.. he doesn't mention the mode of his voice, ie. calling yelling screaming to Standar, its reasonable to assume he was able to at least convey to Standar to get over to his house, because that's what Standar did.. so his mode of speaking at that time was comprehensible. Its not reasonable at this time to assume he directed Standar to call an ambo, unless Standar says he did, because one didn't arrive, and certainly Standar stated he hadn't called one to Dr Stipp.

so that's it. 20 words all up.

While I've never analyzed his story this way, its the foundation of why so many of us find his story implausible on a subconscious level. We know something's not right so we keep searching for hard evidence that makes sense. Thank you.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Steveml. I really can no longer be bothered to argue points with you. I came from a position of thinking it could be an accident but everything I have heard in evidence (BH onwards) tells me that it cannot be. I will not diss witnesses' testimony. They are only there to tell what they heard. All their stories will inevitably be slightly different. As you said yourself, it is not always easy to remember every detail, in your case after only minutes. They are not providing testimony against OP per se, just stating what they heard. The fact that it shows OP to be lying is irrelevant to them but it is very important to the Prosecution. OP has every reason to lie and he has been show to already have lied by two witnesses.

Catch up with you when OP takes the stand. If OP comes up with something convincing I will be more than happy to think again.

 

[soozieqtips]

at that time,Sooz. his brother had just got his original charge dropped down to culpable homicide, from vehicular murder.. You recall Carl ran down a woman motorcyclist, and Kenny Oldwage was Carls barrister. he got a suspended sentence I think.. .

I honestly think they thought it would be the same procedure with Oscar..

Yes, I remember CP having the charge dropped to culpable homicide. I was very surprised about that, to be honest. But OP is arrogant beyond belief if he thinks what he did to Reeva would just be conveniently brushed under the carpet as an 'unfortunate' incident. He has scant regard for the rules, the value of human life, or the horror he has inflicted on Reeva's family. Whether incarcerating him for any length of time will make any difference to his moral compass, I'm not sure. I imagine he'll fester over the outrageous injustice of it all, especially as he's the 'innocent victim'. But at least innocent guests taking a quick pee in the middle of the night won't have to worry about being pumped full of bullets and killed. And hey, more time for him to read the Bible inside! Every cloud, and all that.

 

[Trooper]

While I've never analyzed his story this way, its the foundation of why so many of us find his story implausible on a subconscious level. We know something's not right so we keep searching for hard evidence that makes sense. Thank you.

its not exact, wish.. for example, I don't know, because Oscar doesn't say how many times he calls Reeva's name when he 'realises' she is missing from the bed.. and I don't know precisely what he means by 'calling'..in that context.. it could have been a series of sounds he issued.. I don't know.

I assigned him calling her name 5 times. it could be lots more, it could be lots less.. it was just an arbitrary number..


but the rest of it is as he puts it in his statement. his exact number of words he himself speaks and hears himself speak.

 

[steveml]

I haven't mentioned any of those things, I simply asked why you wouldn't have heard her in the two instances I outlined (i.e. the first one, flushing the loo and the second one, screaming out in pain from the first shot). That's all I asked .. why do you think he couldn't hear those two things, when he had been able to hear the bathroom window slide for a fair way away in another room? (in his version of events).

I can't say whether I would have heard the loo, simply because I don't know one way or the other if she used it.

I can't say she screamed in pain, as I've explained how quick four shots can be fired.
If these shots were as quick as it takes to wiggle your finger back and forth 4 times I doubt Reeva would have made a sound.
I expect the DT will suggest this, as it makes sense.

Witness haven't given us anything specific. They've either said they don't know, quickly one after the other or consecutive.

It would have helped enormously if any witness could have said 'all within a few seconds' or 'all within the space of a minute', or 'a one second gap between shots'.
None have given us much to work from.

 

[steveml]

is it possible to believe, that Oscar, having paid big gobs of money, ( or to be precise, Henke paid) to buy a dog that barks for him, that he would be let loose with a pen and paper and left to construct his OWN statement for the Bail hearing??

like.. they never checked it or went thru it word by word with a revocation of bail pending??


( not that I think they did a good job. it was mediocre work. but even so. )

of course the prosecution will state it, claim it and lay that to rest.. Roux made a performance of Darrin Fresco having an attorneys advice for his statement..

its perfectly normal.. to think they wont is irrational.

It was yourself that mentioned earlier that the defense team is instructed to do what the defendant asks, and has to follow their instructions.

I think I agreed with you.

 

[Gryffindor]

Regarding timings of shots and Reeva's ability to scream. She totally would've had time. After collapsing onto magazine rack, she'd time to cross her arms and hands over her head, so she definitely had time to scream! The shots weren't SO quick.

Plus the 2nd shot missed and ricocheted. You'd defo scream in fear of a near miss, then having shrapnel graze across your back causing bruising.

Oh and the angle and distance from where shots were fired - the ballistics guy said after 1st or 2nd (can't recall) that the accused could have likely moved over to the right nearer the sinks, more INSIDE the bathroom, for subsequent shots.

 

[Trooper]

I can't say whether I would have heard the loo, simply because I don't know one way or the other if she used it.

I can't say she screamed in pain, as I've explained how quick four shots can be fired.
If these shots were as quick as it takes to wiggle your finger back and forth 4 times I doubt Reeva would have made a sound.
I expect the DT will suggest this, as it makes sense.

Witness haven't given us anything specific. They've either said they don't know, quickly one after the other or consecutive.

It would have helped enormously if any witness could have said 'all within a few seconds' or 'all within the space of a minute', or 'a one second gap between shots'.
None have given us much to work from.

mrs Burger said.. it happened in seconds..

Johan Stipp said, it was seconds, milady, seconds.. milliseconds..

mrs stipp said .. it was moments, milady.. everything happened in moments..

Charl Johnson said.. it was a matter of split seconds.


what else would be needed to work from?? its a pity the witnesses were not sound asleep with their atomic clocks firmly strapped to their wrists, as one does, then they could give us nanosecond measurements..

 

[Trooper]

It was yourself that mentioned earlier that the defense team is instructed to do what the defendant asks, and has to follow their instructions.

I think I agreed with you.

what do you think Oscar pays for? he pays for long and intense advice.. that includes any and all written statements above anything else.

to claim that Oscar wrote his 2 statements all on his little lonesome, and tabled it in court again, all on his own, as a secret from his Barrister.. is unbelievable.

why would he want to do that, more to the point..

I still state it was a shoddy piece of work. Oscar isn't getting his moneysworth.

 

[IfIMay]

Yep, it's the whole voice issue again.

Some witnesses say they heard this, some didn't. We don't know how sure they were. All we can say is they claim to have heard a man's voice and they claim to have heard a woman's voice.

They were sure enough to come testify under oath about their accounts. I wouldn't expect everyone's story to line up 100% as this was the middle of the night. I would be highly suspicious if they all had the exact same story.

Voices were heard. Some are adamant that it was a female screaming. I have no reason to doubt their account. Oscar is the only one it benefits to have no female voice whatsoever. And I find his account truly unbelievable on that particular point.

 

[Trooper]

I'm with Innocent Bystander, now.. I 'm movin on.

 

[Duchy]

Thanks Steve. I have been hearing about these broken tiles but never seen a picture before. This is not what I was picturing. I thought we were talking about smashed tiles from the wall or ground. Those tiles have not been smashed. They look like they fell out, like you say. That is exactly what they look like and your theory is a very good one. They are lined up on the floor as if they fell out, and the ones from higher up fell on top. If he was smashing tiles, they would be broken up and would be smashed from lower down. The damage goes too far up. There's also no damage to the tiles around the empty space. Nope, I do not think he smashed the tiles with the bat. I think they fell out some how. My first thought was maybe he was doing some remodeling but don't know about that one.

I know i am catching up with thread but there are so many of you puzzling about the fallen tiles in the bathroom i just have to say that i saw in a photo taken after the murder and before the door was taken off and tiles were in situ on the wall. Think i saw it in juror 13 blog. Check it out.

I'm talking rubbish. Just checked it out myself and think I must of dreamt it lol.

 

[BlueShoe]

Here's what I think I would do if I were Oscar:

Both of these are scenarios based on shots first, cricket bat second.


Scenario One: I've accidentally killed Reeva, thinking she was an intruder. After realizing Reeva was not in bed and likely in the toilet, I would shout out her name and then grab something to batter the door down. I would do so immediately, probably not even bothering to put my prosthesis on, and start battering to see what had happened. Is she still alive, OMG, what have I done? Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, as quickly and as hard as I could. I've got to get to her, I've got to save her.
Oh no, she may be dead. Call an ambulance, quick. Help!

Scenario Two: I've killed Reeva in a fit of rage. OMG, what have I done? Wow, this is really bad. What do I do now? Sit and think a minute. I guess I have to make it seem accidental. How? Wait, maybe she is still alive? Should I try to save her? I'll get my prostesis on and knock down and door and see what has happened. Maybe it can seem accidental. I should call for help. "Help, help, help!" Now to bash down the door. "Bang . . .(Am I doing the right thing?) bang bang bang." There. Wow, she looks dead. I didn't really want to kill her. Too late now. Better make some calls.

If the cricket bat is first and shots after, of couse, my scenarios would be different. The problem with the accidental shooting is the long time lapse between the gunshots and cricket bat, which seems very odd to me. If accidental, why weren't things more like scenario one? I know, the Defense posture is that OP was rushing around madly doing all sorts of things (especially screaming) in the interim. Not very believable IMO

 

[jay-jay]

Regarding timings of shots and Reeva's ability to scream. She totally would've had time. After collapsing onto magazine rack, she'd time to cross her arms and hands over her head, so she definitely had time to scream! The shots weren't SO quick.

Plus the 2nd shot missed and ricocheted. You'd defo scream in fear of a near miss, then having shrapnel graze across your back causing bruising.

.. and even if it wasn't a scream, it would just be an automatic shout out from being hit suddenly .. you know, like as in being winded .. even that would make quite a noise. Yet OP heard nothing, not a sound.

 

[Viper]

I'm with Innocent Bystander, now.. I 'm movin on.

LOL. I moved on a week ago!

 

[jay-jay]

Oscar isn't getting his moneysworth.

Isn't it just brilliant how much all this is costing him though .. and having to sell his house to finance it .. the longer they string it out the better, imo, I bet the finance aspect of it is the thing he finds most destroying of all. God, who in their right minds would want to buy a house with that history/'provenance'?