Trial Discussion Thread #16

[jay-jay]

We don't know there was a gap. Mangena said it was possible.

Mangena said more that it being a possibility, he actually argued that it could only have been one shot, with a tiny gap, then 3 successive shots .. he disputed outright that it could've been two double taps, and he explained exactly why that was, too.

 

[G.bng]

We don't know there was a gap. Mangena said it was possible.

Nope. Check his testimony again. As far as I recall Mangena did not say it was "possible" but to the contrary he stressed there had to be a gap between the first hip shot and the other three due to the physics and/or gravity, i.e. if OP had double tapped the first and second Reeva's body would have not had time to collapse and fall to the floor before the second shot would have also hit her around the same area, and he further explained that if OP had done two double taps then all four bullets would have hit her around the same middle abdomen area, that is according to his theory of the order of the shots.

 

[Insp.Dots]

Like I said, Wikipedia has the information.

But just to give correct information about the subject, if you cut a dead person and turn them the blood may drain out, but in order to actually bleed you need a heartbeat. You bleed because your heart is pumping blood through your body. You can actually have a good idea of how long it took someone to die by the amount of blood surrounding them, assuming they died with a bleeding injury. If there is A LOT of blood around the body it took them a while to die, but if there isn't much blood it didn't take very long, because like I said once the heart stops beating the bleeding stops, as it OBVIOUSLY did for Reeva, in the WC.

Fair points but if true, how would you explain the pool of blood where RS was laid at the bottom of the stairs?

 

[MeeBee]

Mangena said more that it being a possibility, he actually argued that it could only have been one shot, with a tiny gap, then 3 successive shots .. he disputed outright that it could've been two double taps, and he explained exactly why that was, too.

I never argued for double taps.

 

[vansleuths]

Try this scenario and see if it fits:

Killer's story is true... to a point.

He thinks intruder is in bathroom and shoots through door... one shot, hitting Reeva in the hip.

Reeva screams and he realizes he screwed up. She tells him he's crazy, and she's going to call police, etc. Maybe they fought earlier.

Killer breaks in door to try to save her. She keeps berating him while screaming and writhing in agony, threatening to call police, ruin him, etc.

Killer panics, snaps, whatever, and shoots her dead.

He calls Stander, then goes back and rips remaining panels from door, unlocks the door, and carries her downstairs.

Yes, he thought she was an intruder, and yes he intentionally killed her.

Possible based on evidence?

I don't think this would be possible because
1. All the shots came from essentially the same distance and angle. For him to stop shooting, then go back to the same position would be unlikely

2. The time between the first and second bullet wouldn't be long enough for him to rip panels off and then start shooting again.

 

[G.bng]

This is my theory of the iPads syncing:

Sometimes if I'm logged into my email account, whatever I search for/browse will show up on any device I use where I log into my email and will show all my searches/history even if I didn't make the searches on that device. Another theory is that the iPads simply synced up their history, which is a pretty simple explanation, lol. But, for instance, whenever our phone is on the same internet connection all of the phone's history will sync up to our lap top, so the history on the phone becomes the lap top's history. I'll have to ask my husband exactly how it works, he told me once, but I forgot.

Yes. I precisely cancelled my Google+ registration for that reason and never joined the equivalent for Yahoo because tablet and computer were syncing and I didn't want that even though I am sure it must be useful for some.

 

[wishIknewmore]

There was a large hole in the door, big enough to reach/lean through for the key. He would have needed to purposely make this hole to fit in with his statement, shoot Reeva in the head through the door etc. etc.

The point I'm making is this is quite a huge plan to have thought up in seconds/minutes, after having shouted for help.
This is a plan so good that it fits entirely with his statement - there is no glaring hole...yet.

I believe that an argument ensued and he shot her through the door in a fit of rage. When she did not reply or perhaps stopped screaming), reality seeped in and he realized what he did. The rest of the story is pretty close to be truth. Perhaps at that point he tried to save her by getting her out using the bag, breaking the door, ,calling Standler, Netcare, etc.. He probably realized she was mortally wounded and perhaps wAs in the process of trying to figure out what the heck he was going to do when he received the call back and be said "I'm fine." Perhaps he changed some things around, moved Reeva, washed his hands etc with the hopes of messing up the scene so he'd have a better chance to get off. He just didnt had time to do much and or wasn't thinking clearly. He was in a state of shock and possibly grief. This explains why everything AFTER the shooting matches but things don't add up before hand. Once he was in self preservation mode, the 1st cover story he could think of was "burglar in bathroom" since he had experienced that concern at least once before while in bed with Samantha.

 

[Val1]

I got the impression he was saying the spray happened as he was carrying her downstairs. That's still outside the bathroom though.

bbm - This is why I suggested that physics were at play with the arterial spray outside the toilet room.

Carrying a dead or unconscious person is difficult enough for a person who isn't encumbered by having to wear prosthetic legs. Can you imagine the pressure OP would have had to exert on her body(I don't believe I ever suggested actually applying pressure to the wounds per se, that would seem to be counter productive to what I was trying to portray) to keep RS from slipping out of his grip while coming down the steps without losing his balance? Not even carpeted steps to help absorb the impact and she would likely have been a bit slippery at that point as well as being bent at the waist so every step would have created more temporary pressure on whatever blood was still left in her arteries.

Sorry for being graphic but that is my opinion on what likely caused any spurts outside of the toilet room where RS would have to have already died from that head wound.

 

[steveml]

Yes but you would still make a good witness because you definitely heard something and I bet if they had dropped the spanner on their foot and started cursing you would be able to say whether it was a man or a woman
Also your post demonstrates the fact that we can nearly always recognise everyday sounds whether we can see them or not .
How can OP have claimed that he heard the window sliding open but didn't say he heard someone jump down ,didn't hear the door close or the key turned .
To me these are instinctive sounds ? Whether you are scared or not . I find that when I am scared my hearing is on high alert .

Good point. It was only about 60yds away though. I'd like to hear them screaming but will need to drop something much heavier on their foot than a spanner. I'll let you know my findings.

*if it's a guy and he's huge, the results of this test may be somewhat delayed.

 

[Cherwell]

Fair points but if true, how would you explain the pool of blood where RS was laid at the bottom of the stairs?

I would think that her shorts must have become saturated with blood, so perhaps that was where the blood came from? (I haven't looked at a photo, so I may be completely off track here)

 

[Trotterly]

My view is that he knew exactly where she was, i.e. directly behind the door, because she was standing right behind it banging on it to get out from where he had locked her in there. He would know that the first shot got her .. but then the rest would just have been a guess and he kept firing until she was silenced (which just happened to be 4 bullets in all, but he still had another couple left in the chamber and no doubt would've used more if he had needed to).

Mrs Stipp would have heard this as she was awake before the first "shots"

I think he could see her through the broken door.

 

[Insp.Dots]

I don't think this would be possible because
1. All the shots came from essentially the same distance and angle. For him to stop shooting, then go back to the same position would be unlikely

2. The time between the first and second bullet wouldn't be long enough for him to rip panels off and then start shooting again.

Thank you, I had the same thoughts but wasn't sure how to put it down in words.:blushing:

 

[Viper]

Fair points but if true, how would you explain the pool of blood where RS was laid at the bottom of the stairs?

That was just blood pooling from her two more serious wounds to her hip an her head as her body laid there for over an hour IIRC on the time.

I am more interested in the blood pool where she was shot and sat as OP tore the door apart, that was a tiny amount of blood for a gunshot victim with 5 massive wounds including 2 severed arteries. If she had survived for even a minute with those injuries the entire WC would have been covered with a massive pool of blood.

For example, if you do not mind the very graphic image of seeing a man get shot only in the head, and unlike Reeva he survived for a short time with his heart still pumping blood, then Google this:

bangkok protester shot head, bleeds out liveleak

In the US it is the first result at the top if the page. Warning: very graphic!

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Good point. It was only about 60yds away though. I'd like to hear them screaming but will need to drop something much heavier on their foot than a spanner. I'll let you know my findings.

*if it's a guy and he's huge, the results of this test may be somewhat delayed.

I don't think we need a sound test that much that it would be worth putting yourself in danger lol
It does make you think though

 

[Gbtaketwo]

That was just blood pooling from her two more serious wounds to her hip an her head as her body laid there for over an hour IIRC on the time.

I am more interested in the blood pool where she was shot and sat as OP tore the door apart, that was a tiny amount of blood for a gunshot victim with 5 massive wounds including 2 severed arterys. If she had survived for even a minute with those injuries the entire WC would have been covered with a massive pool of blood.

For example, if you do not mind the very graphic image of seeing a man get shot only in the head, and unlike Reeva he survived for a short time with his heart still pumping blood, then Google this:

bangkok protester shot head, bleeds out liveleak

In the US it is the first result at the top if the page. Warning: very graphic!

Won't look at the picture ( squeamish )but it does make you think that maybe a lot of blood went into the toilet pan . Seriously the thought of this breaks my heart thinking about Reeva's words about how we leave the world or something . Will try and find the clip .

 

[Insp.Dots]

With regard to OP telling Baba "everything is fine"......
IMO this was likely said to stop any calls to the Media until he had sought help from his advisers of how to handle what had happened. I think this was hinted at with what Stander had said.
I do think whether guilty or not OP has shown several times his first thoughts are usually of himself.
Having said all that, Baba has already made the error with regard to calls on the stand so maybe the Judge won't give this as much credence as she would had that not happened.

With regards to the arterial spurts, it shows that despite the evidence from Saayman, Van Der Nest and Magana and Stipp there is uncertainty around exact time of death and the arterial spurts. Yet all are State witnesses and experts.

 

[Feynman]

One things that has always bothered me is: for someone who was
a) in the throes of terror washing through him [insert LOL here]
b) in the pitch dark of night
c) shooting through a closed wooden door on his stumps

the defendant had pretty damn good aim. I would imagine someone shooting under the circumstances above would have missed a good deal of shots. :moo:

It wasn't pitch dark in the bathroom.

 

[Insp.Dots]

That was just blood pooling from her two more serious wounds to her hip an her head as her body laid there for over an hour IIRC on the time.

I am more interested in the blood pool where she was shot and sat as OP tore the door apart, that was a tiny amount of blood for a gunshot victim with 5 massive wounds including 2 severed arteries. If she had survived for even a minute with those injuries the entire WC would have been covered with a massive pool of blood.
For example, if you do not mind the very graphic image of seeing a man get shot only in the head, and unlike Reeva he survived for a short time with his heart still pumping blood, then Google this:

bangkok protester shot head, bleeds out liveleak

In the US it is the first result at the top if the page. Warning: very graphic!

So.....dead bodies DO bleed???
I am going to have a look over the evidence and photos again as I did consider she had bled a fair amount from the pics shown, especially looking at the new ones today.
Thank you for the info re google but with all due respect I am a nurse and have worked in critical care so have seen various injuries. But also prefer to stick to the evidence we have.

 

[Feynman]

I think he could have been firing from the hip. That he knew where Reeva was in the toilet having bashed a hole in it. If you know here your target is trapped then shooting from the hip is more likely. Therefore, of course, he had his prostheses on.

Prostheses on? Both sides agree OP wasn't wearing them when the shots were fired.

 

[seattlechiquita]

It wasn't pitch dark in the bathroom.

Door was still closed, dude was still on his stumps, and according to him, with a flush of horror/terror running through his body. And yet, he managed at least two "perfect" shots to a target in a very awkward position. Call me incredulous, but I don't buy it for 2 seconds. Not even trained markspeople can fire with such precision without seeing their target.