Trial Discussion Thread #17

[Trooper]

Does anyone have an alternate version that is consistent with the evidence, other than Oscar's version? Any at all? The state hasn't come up with one yet - unless they you choose not to believe their own witnesses

no... this version you propose, yet again is the same one, , with Roux's added extra of Oscar screaming like a woman ,and everyone mistaken, on every point.

thats the same old stuff..


I am requesting a REAL alternative, not the worked over plodding stuff that requires all sensible people to agree that Oscar did all the screaming that night.. it defies logic, and reasonable people wont give it the time of day.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

In his affidavit, Mr. Pistorius said that he and Ms. Steenkamp had decided to stay in for the night. He canceled plans with his friends for a night on the town in Johannesburg, while she opted against movies with one of her friends. They had a quiet evening, he said. She did yoga. He watched television. About 10 p.m., they went to sleep.

-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

"I've got this thing with all three children (Reeva, and his daughters, Kim and Gina), if they don't come home at night, they must text me," Mr Myers told South Africa's City Press newspaper.

"Then Reeva sent the (SMS) message: 'Hi guys, I'm too tired. It's too far to drive. I'm sleeping at Oscar's tonight. See you tomorrow'.

"Tomorrow never dawned for her I have nightmares at night thinking how frightened she must have been. Can you imagine how terrified she was?"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wo...as-told-to-back-off-from-Reeva-Steenkamp.html
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-

Reeva did yoga unhurriedly but had been too tired to drive home??? That doesn't fit at all.
I suspect, that at the time of her sms nothing was okay in OP's home.
From 6 to 7pm both Reeva and Oscar were in loud dispute and from 2 to 3am also (witnesses).
Between the times of battle seems to be only ingestion (Reeva) and destruction of home equipment and chasing and enclosing and threat. None of "deeply love and couldn't be happier".

 

[james83]

You know ... the way police converge on a suspect before one shoots him and then they all blast away making sure of things and then all stand around still pointing their weapons at a body full of holes expecting it to somehow re-vitalize and come at them. It's that slow methodical shuffle they all seem to do. Human nature I'm afraid.

And you know when you hear a noise at night and ask your partner if she heard it or at the very least warn her your going to investigate a noise with your gun?, that's human nature I'm afraid.

 

[james83]

less than 2 minutes... 2 minute from when he laid the first of a least 3 energetic bat blows... loud enough to be heard at a distance.

It all makes sense.. he bashed down the door, dragged Reeva's body to bathroom and got on phone straight away.

What does not make any sense at all (is impossible) that the second set of sounds were gunshots and OP had to do SOME stuff... such as getting bat, putting on prostheses, bashing door etc.. AS WELL AS the things like dragging Reeva's body and being on phone within seconds... simply makes no sense that there was time for that... and so, as Judge Judy would say... it's not true.

I think EVERYONE agrees that one of the sets of bangs that the Stipps heard WERE the gunshots?

Since it is IMPOSSIBLE that the second set of bangs was the gunshots... it only leaves the first set... whatever time that was (IMO around 3:10)

You cannot prove that anyone actually heard the batshots, how does anyone know how loud those sounds were?.

 

[jay-jay]

Why would the ballistics expert say he was on his stumps if he wasn't?

I'm pretty sure that Really? meant the camera angle of the photo shot of OP, not the trajectory of the gun shots in the bathroom.

 

[K.T]

He didn't change his story for one thing, and for another thing, we are talking about a hypothetical that Noisy Fan posed.

Um, no. I wrote a whole post about the alterations, Trial Discussion Thread #15 - Page 24 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community.

People can keep on saying Pistorius didn't, or use semantics and the fact he left out parts (and added in parts) to his bail affidavit and plea explanation, to somehow justify saying there are no changes. But that's not accurate and it's ironic because people called Mrs Stipp a liar for far fewer changes to her statement.

 

[steveml]

Which State witnesses have confirmed OP's version and what was their testimony that shows they have confirmed OP's version?

I've shown an example of this before.

The bat/gunshot order hasn't been agreed by all of the witnesses. What we do know for certain is that it's one or the other.

If, for the sake of experiment, we presume the cricket bat was used first, every action made by OP from the first sound of the cricket bat ties in with the witness statements.

The only contradiction is whether it was OP making the human noises or Reeva.

We know that Estelle Van der Merve heard what she thought was a woman crying out loud, her husband told her it was OP's voice.

We already know that Johan Stipp ans Annette Stipp heard male voices (albeit female voices as well).

This is something which is yet to be established in court.

 

[K.T]

IIRC, No evidence to date has been presented that the door key to the toilette was ever on the inside of the toilette.

Nor do we know that a key, be it inside or outside, was attached to that door on an ongoing basis.

Oscar lived alone - why would he need or want a key to his own personal toilette door? Are keys attached to other toilette doors in his house? Having a key hole alone does not require/imply that there must be key in that hole at all times.

The one close up photo of the toilette key that has been made available to the public (although poor quality and taken on March 8 2013) appears to show a green key tag with at least two keys attached … how odd to have a dedicated key for the toilette with 2 or more keys attached.

Moreover, no blood is apparent on the green tag.
If this set of keys was recovered from a blood covered floor, I would have expected at least some blood to have been transferred to the tag. Of course, it is possible that the keys were knocked out of the hole (if that’s how they ended up on the floor ) and fell on to one of the few areas of the floor that were void of blood.

Another household key that has somewhat of a mystery surrounding it, is the key to the safe located in the kitchen. There were two safes in Oscar's house -- one in the bedroom closet (a combination lock type), and one in the kitchen (a keyed lock). Curiously, a locksmith had to be called in by the Pistorius family to open the safe in the kitchen.

Google is our friend…
https://www.google.ca/?gfe_rd=ctrl&ei=q7MtU66YDKzE8gfRj4GABw&gws_rd=cr#q=oscar+pistorius+locksmith

Where was the kitchen safe key?
Why was such an important key not available?
Was it attached to the toilette key chain which is now in police custody?

Perhaps I missed some important testimony in either the bail hearing or the trial thus far that would shed some light on the mystery surrounding these keys.

Some of my darkest thoughts regarding that evening would be put to rest if anyone can point me to some evidence however weak (excluding Ops affidavit) that:
a) The toilette door key had been inside the toilette room
b) There is only one key attached to the toilette room lock
c) The kitchen safe key has been recovered

Ps. I wish to commend the many thoughtful, logical and scientific posters on Websleuths for their undeterred search for the truth…you know who you are��

Lastly, I wish to thank Juror13 for the most outstanding, accurate and thoroughly detailed compendium of the trial. It’s a masterpiece!

Great post!

 

[jay-jay]

I was just talking about the scenario that was presented - not other theories or why anyone thinks it's a stupid or impossible scenario. The exact scenario presented - if there was really an armed intruder in the toilet who was going to come out shooting to kill ..under the same conditions that Oscar described, what would you do?

That's what was being asked but many who have undertaken to answer have changed the scenario or commented on its unlikelihood etc.

I haven't bothered entering into this lengthy, hypothetical debate about 'what would you do in that situation' simply because I think, for the purposes of a discussion about the Pistorius case, it's not even worth considering .. and the reason I say that is because it comes after the pivotal moment in OP's version of what happened that evening .. the pivotal moment being when he "heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom" (bail statement)/"I heard the bathroom window sliding open" (plea explanation). That pivotal moment is so clearly a blatant fabrication, that anything after that is just pointless .. trying to work out what you, I, or anyone else would do in a situation when they thought there was an intruder in the house is totally irrelevant because that 'pivotal moment' is completely untrue.

I will tell you why it is untrue .. that is because anyone who has the love of their life staying over the night and when you wake up in the night to bring fans in off the balcony, upon hearing a noise in the bathroom, will immediately know that it is their other half in the bathroom/toilet .. and what they would do if they were unsure about it, or had any kind of doubt over whether it was their OH or an intruder (and this is absolutely what anyone would do in that situation), would be to either look in the direction of the bed to see whereabouts your OH is (or if you cannot see because it is too dark, you would physically pat your hand around on the bed to ascertain whether that person was still in bed or had got up to go to the loo and once you've established (it only takes a second to do that) that your partner isn't in the bed, then you know that she must have nipped off to the loo .. you then breathe a sigh of relief, go back to bed, and then tell your other half when they get back into bed again that they'd given you a fright because you hadn't realised they'd got up and that you thought they were an intruder < cue laughter from both parties from having been so silly >. No-one, who has their other half living/staying in the house, would ever hear a noise and think 'intruder', when the more likely cause of the noise is going to be your other half .. it's just a total nonsense.

That pivotal moment that turned a normal, relaxing, evening (in OP's version) into one of destruction in a hail of bullets, is a downright fabrication (as explained above) .. so anything from that point onwards as regards 'what would you do if you had intruders' is completely pointless in relation to this particular case.

 

[steveml]

Exactly. He also knew his lawyer planned to contact neighbors. The DT knew exactly what was heard and seen by neighbors and over 5 days a perfectly tailored affidavit was hatched. All they had to do is account for the screaming woman, hence claiming that "Oscar screams like a woman." IMO



.

How would they know for sure?
Witnesses still had to give a written statement, and then still had the opportunity to change their statement, as indeed happened.

How did OP or his lawyers get hold of witness statements prior to discovery to know what was contained therein. Do you have a link for this revelation?

 

[Trooper]

I've shown an example of this before.

The bat/gunshot order hasn't been agreed by all of the witnesses. What we do know for certain is that it's one or the other.

If, for the sake of experiment, we presume the cricket bat was used first, every action made by OP from the first sound of the cricket bat ties in with the witness statements.

The only contradiction is whether it was OP making the human noises or Reeva.

We know that Estelle Van der Merve heard what she thought was a woman crying out loud, her husband told her it was OP's voice.

We already know that Johan Stipp ans Annette Stipp heard male voices (albeit female voices as well).

This is something which is yet to be established in court.

BBM for clarity..


the witnesses have affirmed on oath of this event.. = established

Roux, under Oscars instruction has stated it was him screaming = established as defence theory..


I mean.... that, unequivocally, is the defence of this sworn testimony.. its not a series of various defences to these testimonies.. it is THE defence to it. Certainly no other has been tabled ..Oscar doing all the screaming anyone heard is what the defence to this is.

this is the defence claim that has to be stated in the summing up. It just doesn't go away , because somewhere it becomes inconvenient.. it IS the defences leading and established rebuttal to these testimonies..ditto the gunshots turning into cricket bat sounds.. that is the defence position.. and as such, has to be defended..it has been tabled as an opposing reality, and like Kenny Oldwages mythical barking dog, it has to be accounted for before this trial ends.

All posters who claim this as certainty got this whole idea from Roux.. up until the witnesses testified re screams etc.. no one knew of these witnesses.. no one had any idea what their testimony would be, as is proper and correct..

Roux and Oscar have some positions to take at this point in time.. they can claim that Oscar can and does scream like a woman. Unless its the same scream the witnesses heard, it is irrelevant.

It would take one of the original witnesses , and hopefully at least three to take the stand and repudiate their original testimony after hearing Oscar do just that.

They can produce witnesses and documentation that states that Mrs Burger, Mrs VDMerwe, Mr Johnson, Mrs Stipp and Dr Stipp were all attending a live production of 'The Lion King ' in Capetown on Feb 13or some testimony as compelling and unarguable.

Dr Stipp would be the very biggest fallout should that occur, as he was both ear witness and eye witness... and Mrs Stipp, because she had interaction with her husband who couldnt be both in Capetown and across the road from Oscars at the very same time..


established??? you betcha.

will Judge Masipa entertain the idea that Oscar can and does scream like both a man and a woman alternately at the same time??

She will decide on the basis of what a reasonable person would accept.


ditto. gun shots, and cricket bat sounds.

 

[jay-jay]

Oh, and the other thing I meant to have added was .. what are the chances that you just happen to hear a noise at the very point you wake up in the night to bring the fans in? Nope, it's never going to be right at that very moment .. it would be at some other point of the night while you are sleeping. The fact that there was a noise in the bathroom just around the same time as you got up, would indicate even more to OP that it was Reeva who had got up to go to the loo, because his getting up would likely have disturbed her sleep and then she would probably have got up to go to the loo .. and he would've known that, had this scenario actually taken place .. only it didn't, and that's why we now have a trial of the horrific killing of a woman in a toilet taking place right now.

 

[jay-jay]

he never thought there was an intruder.....this is his way to explain as to why Reeva is dead..

Precisely.

 

[Trooper]

How would they know for sure?
Witnesses still had to give a written statement, and then still had the opportunity to change their statement, as indeed happened.

How did OP or his lawyers get hold of witness statements prior to discovery to know what was contained therein. Do you have a link for this revelation?

this posters theory requires the belief that Oscar, and only Oscar did ALL and EVERY scream on that night, and as such, breaks Rule 1 in my request for a real and rational alternative that points to Oscars innocence..


any theory that requires a whole lot of people to suspend their normal and operative judgement on this one issue , and is relying on it to prove the State a liar, is on very very shaky ground.. it cannot be sustained.. in fact, it hasnt been sustained so far.. it is beyond the realms of logical expectation that it will be sustained.

 

[steveml]

Um, no. I wrote a whole post about the alterations, Trial Discussion Thread #15 - Page 24 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community.

People can keep on saying Pistorius didn't, or use semantics and the fact he left out parts (and added in parts) to his bail affidavit and plea explanation, to somehow justify saying there are no changes. But that's not accurate and it's ironic because people called Mrs Stipp a liar for far fewer changes to her statement.

Ah, my mate Mrs Stipp again. Wasn't Mrs Stipp the one who thought there was an intruder in OP's bathroom, and later realized there wasn't.

Hmm...now...who else did that happen to?







...don't take this too seriously

:whiteflag:

 

[Trooper]

oddly.. this complaint about Mrs Stipp actually helps Oscar... she went back the very next day, checked it all again, dated and initialized her statement , took an oath on the correction.


do we know Oscar did this in his 3 changes so far?? nooo.. no date, no nothing..

particularly, his tiny tiny tiny little insertion that he 'spoke with Reeva a few moments before'..

breathtaking.... like.. he forgot the last words she ever spoke?? and the last words he ever spoke to her??

suuuuure.... suuure he did... and while he remembers he 'spoke with her' he with uncanny loss of memory , yet equally, an uncanny recovery of memory months later, cant remember what he said, or what she said, at the utterly crucial moment in his life.. .. according to him, she hadnt uttered a single word since 10pm latest... now suddenly, without warning.. we get a vision of Reeva , alert, cognisant, responsive, awake, her and Oscar 'speaking with ' each other,' moments before ' she is shattered , mangled, destroyed by the person, who on his own admittance shot her and killed her.......

 

[steveml]

this posters theory requires the belief that Oscar, and only Oscar did ALL and EVERY scream on that night, and as such, breaks Rule 1 in my request for a real and rational alternative that points to Oscars innocence..


any theory that requires a whole lot of people to suspend their normal and operative judgement on this one issue , and is relying on it to prove the State a liar, is on very very shaky ground.. it cannot be sustained.. in fact, it hasnt been sustained so far.. it is beyond the realms of logical expectation that it will be sustained.

My theory only requires one logical explanation. The shots were that quick and devastating that Reeva did not have time to scream.

If it can be proven that in all probability a person will scream when shot four times in quick succession, with one shot to the head certainly causing instant death, my opinion is likely to change.

I'm not even going to emphasise the damage that would have been caused.

You'll notice I've purposely played down the hype regarding the 'Black Talon' bullets in all my posts, as I'm not allowing it to sway my opinion.

As of yet I've listened to the prosecution expert, and I'll no doubt hear the defense expert.

I'll also try and find more useful information myself to confirm or disprove my opinion,

Until such time...

 

[Trooper]

Stipp, Stipping, to Stipp.. = to bring into the equation inconvenient and destructive testimony when everything was sailing along nicely and Oscar was just a nice guy but silly goof-off who 'made a mistake'..

 

[jay-jay]

I had posted this awhile back and noone seemed to notice just what the tweet had said... bbm seriously??

Hi Val .. I've seen that tweet before but I can't work out when/what time it was actually sent .. was this before the shooting or after? .. and it's the one that FH sent (to Reeva?)? I can't seem to find the actual text transcription of that tweet in that link to those articles, so am assuming it is referring to the same one? I can't find anything if I try and google that tweet message, either .. so I can't make out whether it was a hoax or not?

 

[Trooper]

My theory only requires one logical explanation. The shots were that quick and devastating that Reeva did not have time to scream.
If it can be proven that in all probability a person will scream when shot four times in quick succession, with one shot to the head certainly causing instant death, my opinion is likely to change.

I'm not even going to emphasise the damage that would have been caused.

You'll notice I've purposely played down the hype regarding the 'Black Talon' bullets in all my posts, as I'm not allowing it to sway my opinion.

As of yet I've listened to the prosecution expert, and I'll no doubt hear the defense expert.

I'll also try and find more useful information myself to confirm or disprove my opinion,

Until such time...

and therefore, all screaming heard was Oscar.. again. Rule 1. this plodding is specifically what I am not interested in at this stage of the game.. its gone on too long, and particularly from people who claim they are doing a good job displaying an alternate version. It isnt. Its a copy of Roux, it never appeared before Roux suggested it, and I am looking for rational and logical posters who have original thoughts.. not copied thoughts.