Trial Discussion Thread #17

[steveml]

oddly.. this complaint about Mrs Stipp actually helps Oscar... she went back the very next day, checked it all again, dated and initialized her statement , took an oath on the correction.


do we know Oscar did this in his 3 changes so far?? nooo.. no date, no nothing..

particularly, his tiny tiny tiny little insertion that he 'spoke with Reeva a few moments before'..

breathtaking.... like.. he forgot the last words she ever spoke?? and the last words he ever spoke to her??

suuuuure.... suuure he did... and while he remembers he 'spoke with her' he with uncanny loss of memory , yet equally, an uncanny recovery of memory months later, cant remember what he said, or what she said, at the utterly crucial moment in his life.. .. according to him, she hadnt uttered a single word since 10pm latest... now suddenly, without warning.. we get a vision of Reeva , alert, cognisant, responsive, awake, her and Oscar 'speaking with ' each other,' moments before ' she is shattered , mangled, destroyed by the person, who on his own admittance shot her and killed her.......

I actually quite like Mrs Stipp.

It's all a bit tongue in cheek really. She's stubborn and gutsy...her main fault is she never seems to accept that she could be wrong.

I think we all have a bit of that though, me included. :smile:

 

[steveml]

and therefore, all screaming heard was Oscar.. again. Rule 1. this plodding is specifically what I am not interested in at this stage of the game.. its gone on too long, and particularly from people who claim they are doing a good job displaying an alternate version. It isnt. Its a copy of Roux, it never appeared before Roux suggested it, and I am looking for rational and logical posters who have original thoughts.. not copied thoughts.

Well I'm very sorry if my opinion is causing you a hindrance.

That's life I'm afraid.

 

[Trooper]

I read that other blokes stuff. Noisy fan.. his idea was that people actually had their fans blowing out on the balcony..


look. no one does that. one has the fans inside recirculating the cool air as such that comes in from the window thru the insect mesh, in Pretoria.. the fans on the balcony blowing away, means mosquitoes, bugs, cicadas, god knows what gets blown IN.

gimme a break.

 

[Trooper]

I actually quite like Mrs Stipp.

It's all a bit tongue in cheek really. She's stubborn and gutsy...her main fault is she never seems to accept that she could be wrong.

I think we all have a bit of that though, me included. :smile:

but she did accept she was wrong!. she went back the very next day and went thru all the rigmarole to correct her own error...


holy smokes.. :twocents:

 

[Trooper]

Poor Kenny Oldwage had to accept he was wrong. he didnt like it, he didnt want to do it and he went one step too far, by bringing in a fictional barking dog with Mrs Stipp..

getting a 'note ' from the Judge is no small smack across the chops, .. its a big deal.

 

[Trooper]

Well I'm very sorry if my opinion is causing you a hindrance.

That's life I'm afraid.

well. my original request wasnt to you., because you trot out the same old Screamin Oscar stuff.. but you felt you had to wring out that old tea towel all over again.

I did ask for posters with REAL alternatives... I didnt ask for posters to re iterate again, the same old copied stuff from Roux. .

 

[jay-jay]

The only reason he is having this trial is because after admitting to having killed someone outside the dictates of the rules that would have supported his need for doing so, is because he then refused to accept responsibility by pleading not guilty.:banghead:

He even went further, and had the gall to say this in his bail statement -->> "I fail to understand how I could be charged with murder, let alone premeditated murder" ... "I have been informed that I am accused of having committed the offence of murder. "

He actually seems surprised that anyone is pulling him up on this .. this thing being just a mere trifling little incident like a woman having been shot dead with four* dum dum bullets in his toilet!


* I know it was 'only' 3 that actually hit her.

I have been informed that I committed the offence of murder ..??? You mean he didn't actually know at the time he did it and had to be told by someone else that he had??? What a joke .. he must think people are stupid.

 

[jay-jay]

He didn't change his story for one thing, and for another thing, we are talking about a hypothetical that Noisy Fan posed.

No, he just conveniently decided to leave some things out, and put some things in, when he (or rather his lawyers) came to construct his plea explanation .. there are a number of differences between his bail statement a year ago and his recent plea explanation for the trial itself .. one of the posters here did a comparison on the other thread, and highlighted all the things that had been missed out, or added, or changed, between the two documents. These weren't insignificant things, either, they relate to the time around the 'pivotal moment' (most of them do, anyway).

 

[K.T]

I will tell you why it is untrue .. that is because anyone who has the love of their life staying over the night and when you wake up in the night to bring fans in off the balcony, upon hearing a noise in the bathroom, will immediately know that it is their other half in the bathroom/toilet .. and what they would do if they were unsure about it, or had any kind of doubt over whether it was their OH or an intruder (and this is absolutely what . No-one, who has their other half living/staying in the house, would ever hear a noise and think 'intruder', when the more likely cause of the noise is going to be your other half .. it's just a total nonsense.

snip

That pivotal moment that turned a normal, relaxing, evening (in OP's version) into one of destruction in a hail of bullets, is a downright fabrication (as explained above) .. so anything from that point onwards as regards 'what would you do if you had intruders' is completely pointless in relation to this particular case.

As a behavioral study we can compare one man’s rush to supposedly shoot without confirming any response from their partner, with the behavior of the witness neighbors.

- Every one of the five witnesses on hearing noises had a conversation with their partner and loved ones on what the sounds were.

- On rereading Juror13, I think it says even the housekeeper/domestic worker staying at the Stipp residence, while on the phone to her husband at the time, seemed to ask her partner about the noise…over the phone.

- Taylor says Pistorius did the same when he heard noises before in the house.

It’s one of those issues about ‘reasonable’ behavior again and what does not seem normal.

 

[james83]

<modsnip>

Oscar
I fired gun
I shouted for help
I used bat

Stipp
Heard shots
Heard more shots
Heard a man shout for help

Stipp hears both sets of sounds then a man shout for help, Oscar shouts for help then uses the cricket bat, conclusion= Stipp didn't hear the cricket bat sounds.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Could I make a suggestion please to those of you following the hypothetic scenario. It would help new posters and those who can only log on occasionally to clearly mark that you are following a scenario rather than the actual case. For someone who has been posting regularly here, it is not immediately obvious. Perhaps including something as simple as Hypothetical Scenario before your post would help.

 

[Lyra500]

oddly.. this complaint about Mrs Stipp actually helps Oscar... she went back the very next day, checked it all again, dated and initialized her statement , took an oath on the correction.


do we know Oscar did this in his 3 changes so far?? nooo.. no date, no nothing..

particularly, his tiny tiny tiny little insertion that he 'spoke with Reeva a few moments before'..

breathtaking.... like.. he forgot the last words she ever spoke?? and the last words he ever spoke to her??

suuuuure.... suuure he did... and while he remembers he 'spoke with her' he with uncanny loss of memory , yet equally, an uncanny recovery of memory months later, cant remember what he said, or what she said, at the utterly crucial moment in his life.. .. according to him, she hadnt uttered a single word since 10pm latest... now suddenly, without warning.. we get a vision of Reeva , alert, cognisant, responsive, awake, her and Oscar 'speaking with ' each other,' moments before ' she is shattered , mangled, destroyed by the person, who on his own admittance shot her and killed her.......

It always amazes me the fuss which is made over Mrs Stipp and what a 'liar' she is. The same people who claim that she is a proven liar (something I strongly disagree with) seem to have no opinion on the cast iron proof that OP is a liar.

Mrs Stipp went back and corrected her statement within 24 hours - long, long before this case ever came to court. She was not caught out in any lie - that is just DT and OP apologists on here water muddying to try and distract attention from what a crock of steaming **** OP's version of events really is.

OP's texts/what'sapp messages have clearly shown that he was willing to lie and to attempt to get friends to lie on his behalf. In court under oath. Strange how the people who castigate Mrs Stipp go very quiet on that proven fact.

 

[james83]

It always amazes me the fuss which is made over Mrs Stipp and what a 'liar' she is. The same people who claim that she is a proven liar (something I strongly disagree with) seem to have no opinion on the cast iron proof that OP is a liar.

Mrs Stipp went back and corrected her statement within 24 hours - long, long before this case ever came to court. She was not caught out in any lie - that is just DT and OP apologists on here water muddying to try and distract attention from what a crock of steaming **** OP's version of events really is.

OP's texts have clearly shown that he was willing to lie and to attempt to get friends to lie on his behalf. In court under oath. Strange how the people who castigate Mrs Stipp go very quiet on that proven fact.

Oscar got caught out as being a liar by his own whatsapp message to Reeva where he is clearly referring to the gun going off in the restaurant, wonder what the judge thought of that?.

 

[jay-jay]

IIRC, No evidence to date has been presented that the door key to the toilette was ever on the inside of the toilette.

Nor do we know that a key, be it inside or outside, was attached to that door on an ongoing basis.


Moreover, no blood is apparent on the green tag.
If this set of keys was recovered from a blood covered floor, I would have expected at least some blood to have been transferred to the tag.

Interesting .. thanks for that. I'm not convinced about the keys ever having been on the floor on the inside of the toilet, and I'm not even convinced they were in the inside lock while Reeva was in there (I happen to think they were on the outside all the while she was in there ) .. we only have his word for it that they were on the inside.

 

[Trooper]

Oscar got caught out as being a liar by his own whatsapp message to Reeva where he is clearly referring to the gun going off in the restaurant, wonder what the judge thought of that?.

even odder ... in a whole restaurant, a busy Friday lunch.. Oscar , mucking around under the table, manages to push the safety switch off, fire off a round,


and the entire restaurant goes silent..


no screams from oscar.. nothin from no one..


whe he fires his gun off in Darrins car.. any screams from Oscar?? hell no..

but on Feb 14th.. the idea is proposed that he screamed for long minutes, over and over again. sometimes as a man, sometimes as a woman and sometimes , obviously, as both a man and a woman at the same time.

 

[Interested Bystander]

I note that some posters think it impossible/unlikely that RS screamed. Having done some research I find it is most likely that she would have screamed and I think that is what the pathologist says. It is an involuntary action when suddenly suffering extreme pain/shock. I am sure you will all know if you hit yourself with a hammer or have a car door closed on your fingers, one will involuntarily yell or groan. One of the more odius examples is people being put to death by gunshot (Middle East conflict springs to mind) often scream when hit by a bullet to the head. However, a bullet injury may not be actually felt at all to start with but the shock is enormous.

I think a lot of the screaming from RS was done whilst she was being "chased" or "threatened". If OP did bang on the door prior to the shooting she no doubt would have screamed with fright but to suggest she could not have screamed at all is very unlikely and it is impossible to discount witness testimony, as much as some of you would like too.

 

[james83]

even odder ... in a whole restaurant, a busy Friday lunch.. Oscar , mucking around under the table, manages to push the safety switch off, fire off a round,


and the entire restaurant goes silent..


no screams from oscar.. nothin from no one..


whe he fires his gun off in Darrins car.. any screams from Oscar?? hell no..

but on Feb 14th.. the idea is proposed that he screamed for long minutes, over and over again. sometimes as a man, sometimes as a woman and sometimes , obviously, as both a man and a woman at the same time.

And remember when he gets the bathroom door open and see's what he has done the screams stop :floorlaugh::floorlaugh::floorlaugh:

 

[Insp.Dots]

I missed the start of this where the hypothetical was posed. I assume it is that there was an armed intruder in the toilet.
Personally I take a dim view of "home invaders"... I would "err" on the side of shooting them BEFORE they had a chance to do me harm. Perhaps overpower me and use my own weapon against me and any others in the house. If somebody invades your home then I do not feel any burden to ascertain the limits of their intent.... assume the worse.... that they are armed and will kill you. I certainly would NOT give them the benefit of any doubt.. wait and see if they do have a gun, let them shoot first before retaliating. etc ( All this is MORE SO... given that it is SA, where home invasion, rape, torture and murder are well known, if not common occurrences)

So... if I genuinely believed (knew for the purpose of the hypothetical) that there was an armed intruder in the toilet I would shoot. I think I might empty the magazine. OP showed restraint in only firing 4 shots.

To clarify:
BEYOND this hypothetical where a person KNEW there was an armed intruder in the toilet. This case involves ascertaining IF OP did genuinely believe that.. and was he in someway reckless in drawing that conclusion ( if he did). The State's case presented has been that OP is lying and that he did not believe that at all. That he shot at the door KNOWING Reeva was behind it. IMO they have failed to prove that. And so far they have barely addressed the issue of was OP reasonable in thinking there was an intruder. Again IMO the State can not address that issue so long as they do not concede that OP thought there was an intruder at all. I think Nel is gambling on being able to prove that OP knew Reeva was in the toilet. I can not see him doing that.
.

I agree, but think it all depends on what the Judge makes of the screaming. IMO

 

[james83]

It's also bonker's to suggest that when oscar shouts "get out of my house, reeva call the police" that she wouldn't say anything back, in fact she had her phone with her so why didn't she call the police?, she would have at least had time to make the connection, at this stage Oscar is not even in the bathroom.

 

[Val1]

Precisely.

I'd bet a pretty penny that OP could still hear RS screaming in fear and pain when those pics came up, that's why the thumbs/fingers in his ears. I'm hoping it was to try and block it out... I guess Nel will have to show him what he did again, just to watch his reaction when he has to answer to it and proceed accordingly.