Trial Discussion Thread #17

[Viper]

I'm not a medical professional but I beleive one will state that the heart will continue to beat for a few minutes after brain death. I suppose it could be argued she wasn't completely brain dead but I beleive the insult to her brain rendered her speechless and motionless.

BIB. Some can, yes, or even much longer, perhaps years. Brain Dead is different from Clinical Death. But if Reeva's heart had continued to beat for a few minutes there would be significantly more blood loss than what we see. She had 5 massive wounds and IIRC 2 severed arteries, which would spurt out massive amounts of blood in seconds if her heart had continued to pump blood through her body. So I do believe what the autopsy stated: she died with only 2-3 last breaths after the one bullet tore through her brain, died meaning her brain, heart, and breathing ceased completely.

 

[Peliman]

BIB. Some can, yes, or even much longer, perhaps years. Brain Dead is different from Clinical Death. But if Reeva's heart had continued to beat for a few minutes there would be significantly more blood loss than what we see. She had 5 massive wounds and IIRC 2 severed arteries, which would spurt out massive amounts of blood in seconds if her heart had continued to pump blood through her body. So I do believe what the autopsy stated: she died with only 2-3 last breaths after the one bullet tore through her brain, died meaning her brain, heart, and breathing ceased completely.

Probably true, she was most likely clinically dead in the bathroom.

 

[steveml]

Oscar's story is just too embellished.

What DID he go upstairs to do?

I'd also like him to recount everything he/Reeva/they did that night up until Reeva's life shockingly and unnecessarily ended. And I wouldn't accept "watched tv and movies" WHICH PROGRAMMES AND FILMS?

"We ate" WHAT DID YOU EAT AND WHEN?

etc etc I want specifics

You'll hear all that and more when OP takes the stand. Nel will make sure of that. There will be no stone left unturned.

His questioning will likely take a number of days.

 

[Gryffindor]

Hmm, the Cassidy Taylor and Melissa Rom incident, he likes forcing people to

"Get out of his house" after disagreements, outbursts and arguments . . . . .

 

[Peliman]

In SA the only way you'd probably shout 'it's me honey' is if you thought it was some kind of joke. The sensible thing would be to lock the door and not shout or even say anything.

If you're going to speak you may as well shout 'I'm over here', to the intruders.

It could well be that Reeva did exactly the sensible thing, to her detriment.

The only intruders were a figment of OP's imagination. Just like he didn't know she was there. IMO

 

[Really?]

You see, I just don't get it.
Why he would be so scared by one little noise coming from the bathroom.
If he had been alone in the house, OK.
But he knew he wasn't.

Can anybody explain his "terror"?

BBM:

Yes.......it is called jealousy ( fear of losing Reeva)

 

[Gryffindor]

BBM:

Yes.......it is called jealousy ( fear of losing Reeva)

Or terror and fear of losing sponsorships and money

 

[kittychi]

But he didn't think he could get out safely. That's the whole point

Then yell to Reeva to push the alarm button instead of asking, er "screaming" for her to call police which would involve her fumbling around in the pitch dark looking for her phone.

I want the alarm system question addressed in trial since it has never been mentioned. Perhaps it was disabled and the point is moot. For my sake, I want it ruled out.

I also want OP to explain why he yelled, er "screamed" "help, help, help" off the balcony (presumably so everyone who was awake could hear him and come running to help) and then tell Security that "everything is fine" when they call.

BTW, Security was not responding to his scream for "help." They were responding to gunshot sounds that a witness heard and reported.

 

[strydohj]

snip snip

It is ridiculous that he, or someone around Pistorius, and the defense team withheld such a vital piece of evidence until February 26th.

I hope Nel can use that to pin Pistorius down on the stand about who helped him take the phone from the crime scene and why did he hinder the investigation by not giving them the password on a device he used continuously.

It may also mean Pistorius was not truthful on the 19 February bail affidavit:

I have no knowledge of any evidentiary material which may exist with regard to the allegations levelled against me. In any event, I believe that whatever such evidence may be, it is in the possession of the police; it is safely secured and I do not have access thereto. I undertake not to interfere with any further investigations.

Having a main mobile phone in the possession of the defense team (or his own hands) through the bail hearing until Feb 26 is pretty much the definition withholding evidentiary material. Thanks also for making the police have to fly to California to phonejack the material.

And why was two phone non-functional phones placed near the crime scene?? I understand the SIMS was swapped for smaller SIMs that was used in the IPhones?

 

[DebinGA]

Hmm, the Cassidy Taylor and Melissa Rom incident, he likes forcing people to

"Get out of his house" after disagreements, outbursts and arguments . . . . .

Yes, screaming and physically man-handling two women out his door during a party? Incredible.

 

[steveml]

I don't see how logistically and physically the shots can be in a different order to those already testified by the ballistics expert. If head first, how could hip, arm and graze on left hand fingers be possible??

And she certainly couldn't have managed the defensive raised arms position AFTER a head shot, allowing for right arm to be hit.

Head was over toilet, thus right side of body would've been untouchable for injury for subsequent 2 bullets.

We don't know for sure the position of Reeva's body before, and certainly after, the shooting. The body had been removed. We can only listen to what we've heard from ballistics to see if it makes sense, and ties in with other logical explanations.

It appears from Roux's line of questioning that the DT suspect the body positions could have been somewhat different. Once we've seen the DT's alternative theory it may become a lot clearer which position is most likely.

I'm not sure the head shot was first, I've maintained that throughout when I mentioned that this wasn't a targeted shooting. The possibility and length of time available for Reeva to scream is something I'd like to reconcile.

There will be disagreements between both sets of experts, that's quite usual in a murder case.

 

[Cherwell]

No wonder Nike cancelled his/their "I'm the Bullet in the Chamber" ad campaign.

OMG, I'd forgotten about that. I bet they were mortified.

 

[Viper]

I don't see how logistically and physically the shots can be in a different order to those already testified by the ballistics expert. If head first, how could hip, arm and graze on left hand fingers be possible??

And she certainly couldn't have managed the defensive raised arms position AFTER a head shot, allowing for right arm to be hit.

Head was over toilet, thus right side of body would've been untouchable for injury for subsequent 2 bullets.

BIB IDK, but OP must be paying that guy (his ballistics expert) a boat load of money to write yet another fairy tale for him! :floorlaugh:

I would try to guess his version but putting Reeva's injuries, her positions as she received the injuries, and the bullet trajectories in a believable version that has her being shot in the head first is just too much of a puzzle for me to deal with. I only get as far as "Reeva was doing a backflip when, while she was in mid air, the first shot hit her in the head; as she fell the second shot..." I gave up at that point. :smile:

 

[Cherwell]

Another instance where OP believed there was an intruder in the middle of the night. No shots fired though. From the Vanity Fair story.........
"A lifelong friend, Azzie has spoken to Pistorius almost daily since the shooting. They own a racehorse together, and Oscar is trying to sell his share to cover legal fees. “I ask him, ‘How are you feeling, Ozzy?,’ and he just says, ‘I’m a broken man, Uncle Mike,’ and every single time he mentions Reeva and her family.” He recounted an incident when his son had slept over at Oscar’s house and made a noise when he got up to get a drink of water in the middle of the night. “Oscar came running out with a gun in his hand,” said Azzie."http://www.vanityfair.com/culture/2013/06/oscar-pistorius-murder

Interesting! There's probably a difference though: I'm betting they weren't sleeping in the same room (much less the same bed!), so investigating with gun in hand is reasonably understandable. And no shots fired once the cause of the noise is perceived to be harmless.

 

[delilah]

I think the results of the pathologist are interesting, and show us exactly how we do not think clearly and react the expected way after such a distressing situation.

OP was wrong when he thought Reeva was alive. He wasn't lying as that is exactly what he believed at the time. He thought he could revive Reeva. We see this reaction on numerous occasions when somebody is dead and the person nearest to them won't accept the fact, thinking they can bring the person back.

How can I be so sure?

The Pathologist Professor Gert Saayman said :-

A bullet that hit the right side of Reeva's head fractured her skull and entered her brain. Part of the projectile lodged in her brain. She would have lost consciousness and probably didn't breathe more than a few times after sustaining this wound, The wound to the head was incapacitating and probably almost instantly fatal.

Roux claims she died instantly, Gert Saayman claims she possibly made a couple of breaths.

I think the way Gert mentions the words 'probably almost instantly fatal' tells us that there's no perfect answer. There may be further pathological evidence regarding this, however I'm not sure they'll discover much more than what is already known.

Whichever suggestion we wish to accept, the one thing it confirms is that OP may have thought Reeva was still alive when trying to revive her, but she wasn't.

Instantly or a couple of breaths do not equal nine minutes. I really don't see how that "confirms ...that OP may have thought Reeva was still alive when trying to revive her".

It's yet another part of his account that does not ring true.

 

[Cherwell]

In SA the only way you'd probably shout 'it's me honey' is if you thought it was some kind of joke. The sensible thing would be to lock the door and not shout or even say anything.

If you're going to speak you may as well shout 'I'm over here', to the intruders.

It could well be that Reeva did exactly the sensible thing, to her detriment.

BIB

Ah yes, like Oscar did. :facepalm:

 

[Harmony 2]

:lurk:

 

[strydohj]

It's a safe assumption if I'm shooting into a 3x3 bathroom or whatever it's actual dimensions were.

But if the intruder was stationary to the right of the door inside the cubicle it would not have been a safe assumption. He did not shoot randomly to cover all corners of the toilet. Look more like it was aimed to the left towards the toilet. So why focus on one specific area of the toilet and and then infer after 4 shots that you are sorted?

 

[delilah]

If it was head shot first, why was she sitting on the toilet (or magazine rack) with her hands covering her head? She had no reason at that point, in the 'shots first, bat second, "I didn't know it was Reeva" ' theory, to think anyone would attack her in a locked toilet. So the defence are going to have to come up with another explanation for the wound to the webbing between her fingers, and the injury to her right upper arm that showed she had her arm up across her chest when she was hit.

 

[Viper]

And why was two phone non-functional phones placed near the crime scene?? I understand the SIMS was swapped for smaller SIMs that was used in the IPhones?

BIB. I didn't get that the two Blackberry phones were in the bathroom, only that they were found, perhaps in a drawer or table top in the bedroom.

Reeva's iPhone and OPs "business" iPhone were found in the bathroom. OPs "personal" iPhone that he used that night was smuggled out if the home by perhaps Aimme or Carl, I tend to think that Clarise Stander would not break the law for OP, JMO.