Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[soozieqtips]

I just spotted something interesting.

OP said:

"If I was in a hurry I would have just run where I did"...

... which means the same thing as:

"If I'd been in a hurry, I would have just run where I did"

His sentence is grammatically incorrect, but it doesn't matter, because he's still basically using the third conditional. What tense you use when describing an event is quite telling, especially at a murder trial.

Third conditional sentences describe the past. They describe something that didn’t happen.

Example - If I’d studied harder at school, I would have gone to university.

http://learnenglish.britishcouncil.org/en/grammar-reference/conditionals-2

 

[minor4th]

But OP has already said that he was screaming and crying really loud for awhile. So the witnesses were correct about hearing screaming.

Sure - but it wasn't Reeva they heard

 

[BritsKate]

Ok so whether it was 3:10 or 3:12 when he fired the shots - that would have ended Reeva's screaming, so the witnesses could not have heard a "woman screaming" between 3:12 (or whatever time the actual shots were) and 3:17 when all the witnesses heard the cricket bat hitting the door.

How are you coming up with 12 minutes the witnesses could have heard Reeva screaming?

Your post said 3-3:10. Some witnesses also put screaming at around or shortly after 3am as well.

 

[G.bng]

I don't know whether I should admit to this but although my uppermost thoughts are seeking justice for Reeva I have a deep sense of sadness for OP .
He has taken a life and ruined his own life .
One wonders if things might have been different if he hadn't lost his mum.
I still find myself needing to guide my kids and the eldest is now 25.
They are quite spoilt and sometimes need reigning in .

I think he would have had a lot more understanding if he had been more honest at the beginning . This is not to say that I don't think he should be punished,of course he should but the whole thing is just sad sad sad

I mainly agree. I am not sure if it is OP or his defence team (advising him to not talk) that has a lot to answer for. I wrote some days back that if OP had not lawyered up and refused to talk to the police even with a lawyer present, had he accepted his blame, had he pleaded guilty on the various minor gun law charges instead of ridiculously denying them and calling friends and family liars, (for OP even his dad is a liar now having refused to own up to the ammunition being his), this case could have been settled with a guilty to culpable homicide plea and asking mercy of the judge who could give him 0-15 years for the offence, avoiding OP having to go through all of this torture to himself while maintaining his dignity, credibility and face which he has lost in these three days of questioning.

That said as you say I also think he should be punished. Personally I am doubtful OP premeditated or intended to kill Reeva and I don't think the prosecution will prove this. I do think it more probable than not he intended to kill a burglar if it is true he believed there was one. I think either he got in a rage or he recklessly jumped to the conclusion there was a burglar and unconscionably and recklessly shot through a door without ascertaining whether Reeva was safe, and whether they were being threatened because imo, and under SA law which is more important here, even a burglar cannot be summarily despatched. I think he should be convicted, just not sure whether murder (via transferred intent from the burglar), or of culpable homicide. I think he is sorry for but he has still has not accepted his blame and therefore his repentance is more to do with the effects this has had on him. I also think it despicable that he should ambush her family with an apology giving them no option but to listen to it when he had never done so in private whether in writing or personally.

 

[Val1]

Given that he has often spoken about being on a restricted diet when in training I have wondered if he might be bulimic? Could explain the ease with which he throws up when things get awkward.

bbm -herbal supplements?
Possible, though I'm leaning more towards hypoglycemic. My oldest son gets moody, then very irritable and sometimes has anger outbursts/tantrums when he hasn't eaten for an extended period of time, he's currently being tested for liver problems because his levels are way out of whack. :/ After the outbursts, and having eaten, he tends to then also overreact(imo) with the apologies etc...

http://www.webmd.com/diabetes/tc/hypoglycemia-low-blood-sugar-topic-overview

What causes hypoglycemia in people who don't have diabetes?

Ongoing problems with low blood sugar can be caused by:

Diseases of the liver, kidneys, or pancreas.
Metabolic problems.
Certain medicines.
Alcohol use.
Stomach surgery.

What are the symptoms?

Symptoms can be different depending on how low your blood sugar level drops.

Mild hypoglycemia can make you feel hungry or like you want to vomit. You could also feel jittery or nervous. Your heart may beat fast. You may sweat. Or your skin might turn cold and clammy.
Moderate hypoglycemia often makes people feel short-tempered, nervous, afraid, or confused. Your vision may blur. You could also feel unsteady or have trouble walking.
Severe hypoglycemia can cause you to pass out. You could have seizures. It could even cause a coma or death.

If you've had hypoglycemia during the night, you may wake up tired or with a headache. And you may have nightmares. Or you may sweat so much during the night that your pajamas or sheets are damp when you wake up.

 

[BabaJ]

I think the whole door testimony was to explain the damage on the bedroom door....for all we know OP was chancing her into the bedroom and he broke out the door in a rage. imo

I cannot but agree. With all due respect, he had double door installed because of the wheelchair access but there is no way to get a wheelchair upstairs and then both toilets (the master en-suite and the guest room) have 70 or 80-cm wide door and no room for a wheelchair. If the upper floor drawing is correct (Drawing thread) there is not way the upper floor is "wheelchair friendly". IMOO

 

[BritsKate]

But OP has already said that he was screaming and crying really loud for awhile. So the witnesses were correct about hearing screaming.

Ah...but the defence is going to introduce neighbours who heard just crying and NO screaming.

So Oscar screamed like a girl but he didn't scream but he did cry?

 

[kaos]

I do think he thinks he is to blame. He killed her. Why wouldn't he feel remorse about that?

He thinks it was a "mistake", an "accident" a "tragedy", he doesn't believe he killed her, he believes he "took her life".

Nel's question yesterday "You killed Reeva Steenkamp, didn't you? You made a mistake? You killed a person. You killed Reeva Steenkamp. Say it. Say I shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp."

His response "I did my lady"

He was told to say "I shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp" yet still refused to say it and the "I did my lady" response was probably him agreeing to the "you made a mistake" part of the question. He will not say he killed Reeva because he doesn't believe that he did. He doesn't 'take the blame' for anything but he'll 'accept the repsonsibility' for things because he sees them as two completely different meanings that he's justified in his mind.

 

[katydid23]

Sure - but it wasn't Reeva they heard

Right. But that does not negate the real possibility that he did know who was behind the door when he shot. You have been saying that the facts fit OP's version so u believe him. I am just saying that they can also fit perfectly with a version where he knows she is the one hiding in the toilet when he shot.

 

[rachael123]

All the messages light up,easy to read.He thinks she is using him for fame and he wacks her with the bat in the bed.She grabs her jeans and her phone screaming and he gets the jeans off her and throws them out the window so she can't leave.She runs in the bathroom and locks the door.He beats the door with the bat.Goes back for the gun and shoots.
JMO

Getting an "I love You"is not suspicious.

 

[Gryffindor]

He thinks it was a "mistake", an "accident" a "tragedy", he doesn't believe he killed her, he believes he "took her life".

Nel's question yesterday "You killed Reeva Steenkamp, didn't you? You made a mistake? You killed a person. You killed Reeva Steenkamp. Say it. Say I shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp."

His response "I did my lady"

He was told to say "I shot and killed Reeva Steenkamp" yet still refused to say it and the "I did my lady" response was probably him agreeing to the "you made a mistake" part of the question. He will not say he killed Reeva because he doesn't believe that he did. He doesn't 'take the blame' for anything but he'll 'accept the repsonsibility' for things because he sees them as two completely different meanings that he's justified in his mind.

By saying "I shot and killed Reeva" would sound like he intended to kill her not an intruder. Knowingly and intentionally wanted to kill her.

He wouldn't say it because he didn't want to kill her.

Also I found it the most horrific, awkward, brutal bullying by Nel.

 

[TorisMom003]

Another thing that makes no sense with OP's testimony from today....

Reeva had the duvet on her legs. OP did not have the duvet on him at all. When OP gets out of the bed to move the fans inside, shut the sliding doors and curtains OP shoves the duvet aside. When asked why if he was not under the duvet, OP replied because he was getting out of bed.

Now, if the duvet is not covering him at all why the need to shove it aside? Perhaps shoved it off of Reeva because he was ticked off at her?

MOO

 

[AlwaysShocked]

"Well I totally disagree that it's been proved that the fans were never on the balcony (or partially on the balcony or whatever)."

Oscar testified the fans were never on the balcony. He said only one leg of the tripod style fan was on the patio flooring, that the other two legs were on the carpeted bedroom flooring. He also said the small fan was sitting on the carpeted bedroom floor in between the legs of the tripod fNn. Said he never went out onto the patio at all. Said he was in the bedroom the whole time. Said he had his back turned to the bed at some point during the moving of the fans.

-------------

No matter how exact or inexact is the science of determining time of death based on stomach contents, no medical expert whatsoever, anywhere is going to agree that food would remain in the stomach 7 or 8 hours after it was eaten.

So that puts things where? Reeva ate much later than what Oscar has testified to. And even if we put it at say, 4 hours prior to her death, that would be around 11:00PM.

IMO Oscar is lying about the time they ate. Why?

Because he has to. He came up with his "story" for the Bail Hearing and he is pretty much tied into it. Except when he changes his "version" - as in Reeva was asleep. No, she was awake. I went out onto the patio. No, I never went out onto the patio.

I think Nel has quite a long way to go with this witness. He hasn't even started on Oscar's post-death actions with the poor woman's dead body. Garbage bags! When I first read that she was laying there in the hallway covered with garbage bags (that's what the article I read said) I was dumbfounded. Others have pointed out that perhaps this was as protection against blood.

Which still doesn't make sense to me. Oscar already had her blood all over him, plus theoretically he was having a sexual relationship with her and would have already been exposed to any possible diseases she had. (And we've read of none.) And there has been no other testimony or indication that anyone else was performing any lifesaving techniques on her, right? Not lawyer lady, not the guards.

 

[TorisMom003]

Something else that I noticed.

When OP was talking about him getting out of the bed to go do all of the things he claims he did and that he did not look at Reeva when she spoke to him and he answered her, Reeva's friend (Gina I think?), the woman beside Reeva's mom (not sure who she is) and Reeva's mom all had expressions of frowns, shaking heads, things of that sort to show that they did not believe his story about that and/or it didn't make any sense.

MOO

 

[Val1]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carol70 View Post
I heard roux charges R50k ZAR a day, that's a heck of a lot, and then I'm sure all the other fees as well, this is going to cost OP a small fortune.

...and he's allegedly been getting his information off here as well :wink:

Get your claim in. :dance:

I only take cash, no watches or used cell phones please, can't leave a money trail for my hb to try and claim a percentage, anymore than OP wanted to with those mysterious thumb drives with apparently offshore investments/bank accts/whatever in his safe. I wonder if Roux has put in a claim for any of those or is just holding the property deeds as collateral?

 

[soozieqtips]

By saying "I shot and killed Reeva" would sound like he intended to kill her not an intruder. Knowingly and intentionally wanted to kill her.

He wouldn't say it because he didn't want to kill her.

Also I found it the most horrific, awkward, brutal bullying by Nel.

Saying "I shot and killed Reeva" means he accepts he shot and killed Reeva, nothing more, nothing less. As for the 'bullying' by Nel, it's not his job to mollycoddle someone on trial for murder. It's his job to discredit his account of what happened, to pick holes in his fairytale and prove he's lying about the events of that night. So far, he's doing a good job. Don't forget that OP killed a daughter, a niece, a friend. She was many things to many people, and they have to live without her now. And if you watched what Roux did to to perfectly innocent witnesses (making one of them cry) you'd see that Nel is doing the same job with his own witness. And since OP is the only survivor of the bloodshed he caused, of course Nel is going to badger and bully him. He needs to get to the truth. Tomorrow should bring more inconsistencies to Fictionville.

 

[celticthyme]

True. He has never been a responsible gun owner, however, he answered those questions correctly in order to obtain even more guns so that shows that he does know the correct way to be a responsible gun owner. He just chooses not to be a responsible gun owner.

MOO

This attitude is typical of the narcissist. Laws just do not apply to him, because he is so "special." Everything in his world is about him, how he sees it, how he's feeling how he needs all the attention and gets upset if anyone else (Reeva) gets attention or is not totally focused on him.

 

[clearskies1]

Do you think his 'dream team' of lawyers are not on the ball? Or he's shooting his mouth off a bit too much on the stand? I'm starting to suspect a bit of both!

I think OP has good lawyers. Think Roux is smart enough to have figured out the problems with OP's changed versions (bail, plea, trial), the placement/plugging in of fans, etc. I don't envy Roux -- he's probably stressed to the max.
MOO

 

[nastasya]

Well I totally disagree that it's been proved that the fans were never on the balcony (or partially on the balcony or whatever). Nor do I think Nel proved that the fans couldnt have both been plugged in. Not at all. He's obviously trying to suggest that but he hasn't made his point at all.

But I'll say again, I don't think there's any way for the state to get around the evidence that the gunshots were at 3:00- 3:10, at which time Reeva died and could not have been the one screaming, and the cricket bat hit the door at 3:17. That's hard evidence that cannot and has not been explained by the state. No one who believes Oscar is guilty will even come close to addressing this - choosing instead to dismiss this and conclude that the witnesses who heard "a woman" screaming were all correct, despite the impossibility.

What are you talking about? Where is the "hard evidence" that the gun shots were at 3:00 - 3:10??

Not one witness testified to hearing a cricket bat hit anything, let alone at exactly 3:17. To think there is hard evidence that the bat hit the door at 3:17 is misstating the evidence.

Cricket bat hitting door - woman screaming - gunshots - <modsnip> pries loose panels from door.

That's what totality of the evidence shows. It's not that complicated.

 

[soozieqtips]

Something else that I noticed.

When OP was talking about him getting out of the bed to go do all of the things he claims he did and that he did not look at Reeva when she spoke to him and he answered her, Reeva's friend (Gina I think?), the woman beside Reeva's mom (not sure who she is) and Reeva's mom all had expressions of frowns, shaking heads, things of that sort to show that they did not believe his story about that and/or it didn't make any sense.

MOO

Yes, I mentioned earlier that I thought it was really odd that he didn't even glance in her direction when she asked (allegedly) if he couldn't sleep. Made me wonder if he was angry because she hadn't followed his instructions to bring in the fans. He comes across as a cold and unfeeling character, oblivious to anyone but himself.