Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[nastasya]

10 April this happened:

Nel: (photograph of the fan in the door on screen) If you now look at the photograph in terms of what shouldn't be there...What else is wrong there?

Long pause of about fifteen seconds.

OP: Well the fan couldn't have possibly been there, my Lady, because it's in the way of the doors opening.

Nel: Indeed. Indeed.

OP: I would have run out on to the balcony where I shouted for help and that fan would have been in the way so...

Nel: It never happened.

OP: So it must have been moved, my Lady.

Nel: It never happened. Because now you see it. That fan, in the position where it is there would have blocked you, would have made it difficult for you to close that door.

OP: (Very calm.) My Lady, the curtains as well on the left. I wouldn't have had time to move all the way along to open the curtains that much.

Nel: Yes.

OP: If I was in a hurry I would have just run where I did (slight hesitation) open the door, run out on to the balcony, I wouldn't have drawn the curtain all the way far to the left hand side.

Nel: You see, because, Mr. Pistorius, your version is a lie. You never closed that curtain, Mr. Pistorius, in the first instance. That's why you have to come up with things. Because now we have to look for a policeman that'll do the following: That moved the duvet to the carpet. That moved the fan back. That moved the curtain more open. Those three things, am I right?

OP: That's correct, My Lady.

Nel then goes on to say that this was never put to either Van Rensburg or Van Staden that these things were moved and that's strange because if they had moved it, they would in fact have been interfering in OP's defense.

BIB OP is talking in hypotheticals about his story which he is trying to present as factual.

It's almost like he's treating his testimony like a parlor game of 20 questions, trying to out-clever his explanations to thread a perfect needle and fit all the evidence.

Does he really believe that's all he's required to do? Is there any doubt at this point the defense team worked backwards from the moment Stipp and Baba showed up and "reworked" their stories until everything fit inside the known testimony and facts?

• Witnesses heard a woman screaming - it was Oscar screaming like a woman.
• Witnesses heard a man an woman's voice - it was Oscar screaming like he's never screamed before in his life.
• Witnesses heard gun shots - it was Oscar hitting the door with the bat.
  [*]Bedroom door is broken - it was Oscar barging through it on way back up the stairs. WTF?
• He didn't see Reeva get out of bed - he covered the LED with pants.
• He didn't hear Reeva get up - he was bringing in fans.
• He fired the gun in the restaurant - gun magically fired off itself.
• He fired gun through roof of car - 2 witnesses are colluding against him.
• Fan is in the way of the door - police moved it.
• Fans can't both be plugged in - police moved them.
• Plastic bags, rope, and tape - Somebody was trying to stop the bleeding.

Nel is going to finish him off with the cell phone and internet records. Nel is acting incredibly confident. He knows what happened. He's playing this like somebody who knows he has the winning hand. He's going to ask OP questions about the internet access on the iPads and phones, and produce records that OP and the defense don't know he has yet. Since it will be to refute OP's lies, he hasn't had to produce this evidence. Roux will claim he's being ambushed again, but it won't matter.

 

[K.T]

Some random thoughts after 3 days of watching OP under cross examination:

The term "Oscar World" is apt.

<snip>

Great post! Thanks and thanks to Lisa too, been agreeing with what I have read just now.

I go with "Oscar Wild" (without the original's articulation and intelligence)

Pistorius is just difficult to understand, in many ways. He&#8217;s been caught out on so many points. The other day he made long meandering dialogues about his honesty and memory (ironic) that became almost nonsensical if you studied them closer.

I&#8217;ve transcribed a few things before and average people never talk in complete sentences of with any grammar, recollections are mixed with detail and usually non sequential.

But it&#8217;s more than strange to contradict a statement while in the middle of finishing that statement. Pistorius can do that and then double back and do that a couple times&#8230; in single sentence. Just so people understand - this is not natural.

Gave up trying to transcribe him after two attempts; it&#8217;s like trying to live in a head of mental fog.

On one hand, at a criminal trial, this can seem to be keeping too many thoughts in his head at one time. Trying to remember a story, sound truthful and avoid inconsistencies, which is not helping the answers make sense or be credible. On the other point I would go to some disordered personality too.

I know people will still believe him, it can sound all fine and articulate on the most surface level, especially on a boyishly handsome grief-stricken face. But without that, well, it&#8217;s hard not to see that he&#8217;s frequently lying and something&#8217;s wrong here.

He is providing insight on just how strange his behavior has been in the past, how he can't rationalize his impulsiveness, and how he could quite easily pick up a gun and have killed Steenkamp after losing control of his emotions.

 

[BritsKate]

BBM

Respectfully, I believe his story screams that it's molded TO the evidence.

I cannot agree that it hasn't been disproven, or at least parts of it thus far. Nel just started to cross-examine on the night in question so there is plenty more to go.

So far he has disproven:

1. The fans ever being on the balcony. They were not. There was no reason for Oscar to not see Reeva get up. His story states she was on the right side of the bed. He was standing right there. She did not get up mysteriously and slip past him in the immediate second that he closed the curtains. That didn't happen. It is not logical.

2. Both fans being plugged in and on, as Oscar testified. Nel proved that with his detailed examination of the plugs and locations of the fans and applying it to Oscar's story. It was not possible, didn't happen that way.

I predict there will be a lot more to come.

In addition...now, miraculously, Oscar could see jeans on the floor and Reeva's legs under the duvet. He'd been maintaining that it was too dark to even see the bed until today afaik.

He doesn't believe she got up while he was sleeping but can't account how she left the room - just feet from him - while he was awake. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[bloodmeridian]

I agree with this.....entirely, apart from not being able to imagine him doing this. IMHO, this was a 'crime of passion'. He lost it...enraged.....as you say, but he is either crying like a whimpering boy, or baby in court, or he is (albeit) calm, but very belligerent and refuses to take responsibility for anything! Don't get me wrong. Wither 'accident' or Murder, I believe OP feels a lot of remorse.

 

[minor4th]

BBM

Respectfully, I believe his story screams that it's molded TO the evidence.

I cannot agree that it hasn't been disproven, or at least parts of it thus far. Nel just started to cross-examine on the night in question so there is plenty more to go.

So far he has disproven:

1. The fans ever being on the balcony. They were not. There was no reason for Oscar to not see Reeva get up. His story states she was on the right side of the bed. He was standing right there. She did not get up mysteriously and slip past him in the immediate second that he closed the curtains. That didn't happen. It is not logical.

2. Both fans being plugged in and on, as Oscar testified. Nel proved that with his detailed examination of the plugs and locations of the fans and applying it to Oscar's story. It was not possible, didn't happen that way.

I predict there will be a lot more to come.

Well I totally disagree that it's been proved that the fans were never on the balcony (or partially on the balcony or whatever). Nor do I think Nel proved that the fans couldnt have both been plugged in. Not at all. He's obviously trying to suggest that but he hasn't made his point at all.

But I'll say again, I don't think there's any way for the state to get around the evidence that the gunshots were at 3:00- 3:10, at which time Reeva died and could not have been the one screaming, and the cricket bat hit the door at 3:17. That's hard evidence that cannot and has not been explained by the state. No one who believes Oscar is guilty will even come close to addressing this - choosing instead to dismiss this and conclude that the witnesses who heard "a woman" screaming were all correct, despite the impossibility.

 

[Chelly]

All this discussion on the fans and length of their respective cords:
Have they been introduced into evidence?
Let's see them!

 

[bloodmeridian]

Exactly.

So this latest fabrication probably seemed like a really good idea at some point, but it has raised a whole new set of discrepancies and questions, because if she was awake, then why didn't he notice that she did not answer him when he "whispered to her to call the police" (yet another alteration to his original statement). And how could he not notice her getting out of bed anyway in such a small room?

Do you think his 'dream team' of lawyers are not on the ball? Or he's shooting his mouth off a bit too much on the stand? I'm starting to suspect a bit of both!

 

[lisasalinger]

Here is a list of the selective items that Oscar cannot remember from that night. He remembers everything else, some things in great detail:

1. He doesn't remember talking to Netcare, but remembers them telling him to take her to the hospital.

2. He doesn't remember calling Baba, nor does he remember Baba calling him back and speaking to him. He apparently doesn't remember Baba and the guards being at the scene because he never mentioned them at all when Roux asked him who was there.

3. He doesn't remember walking down the hall with Reeva in his arms. He only remembers being on the second portion of the stairs.

4. He doesn't remember getting the plastic bags (I suspect he got them on his first trip downstairs and really would love to know why).

5. Clarice asked him for rope and/or tape and he doesn't remember if he or Clarice went to get it.

6. He doesn't remember what Dr. Stipp looks like... still! He said on the stand "I still don't remember his face or what he looks like". WTF. He was just in court testifying a few weeks ago?!!

7. He doesn't remember if he talked to Justin Devaris on the phone or not.

Good old selective memory... it's every guilty person's best friend.

 

[katydid23]

10 April this happened:

Nel: (photograph of the fan in the door on screen) If you now look at the photograph in terms of what shouldn't be there...What else is wrong there?

Long pause of about fifteen seconds.

OP: Well the fan couldn't have possibly been there, my Lady, because it's in the way of the doors opening.

Nel: Indeed. Indeed.

OP: I would have run out on to the balcony where I shouted for help and that fan would have been in the way so...

Nel: It never happened.

OP: So it must have been moved, my Lady.

Nel: It never happened. Because now you see it. That fan, in the position where it is there would have blocked you, would have made it difficult for you to close that door.

OP: (Very calm.) My Lady, the curtains as well on the left. I wouldn't have had time to move all the way along to open the curtains that much.

Nel: Yes.

OP: If I was in a hurry I would have just run where I did (slight hesitation) open the door, run out on to the balcony, I wouldn't have drawn the curtain all the way far to the left hand side.

Nel: You see, because, Mr. Pistorius, your version is a lie. You never closed that curtain, Mr. Pistorius, in the first instance. That's why you have to come up with things. Because now we have to look for a policeman that'll do the following: That moved the duvet to the carpet. That moved the fan back. That moved the curtain more open. Those three things, am I right?

OP: That's correct, My Lady.

Nel then goes on to say that this was never put to either Van Rensburg or Van Staden that these things were moved and that's strange because if they had moved it, they would in fact have been interfering in OP's defense.

I'd like people to read the above cross, and then tell me that Nel is not doing a brilliant job. There is a method to his madness. He could not have dragged OP to this exact place, without first 'breaking him down' and making him a bit raw.

:jail: :liar:

 

[minor4th]

After listening to him trying to work his way around the law regarding the ammo, his finger not being on the trigger at the Tasha, his determination to avoid saying he "killed" Reeva etc that when Oscar decides what his own 'truth' is - regardless of whatever points to the contrary - that he actually believes it enough that nothing will change his mind? So therefore his emotion will be real because he genuinely thinks he's done nothing wrong?

Well, I think his account is true for the most part despite being a baby and refusing to just take responsibility for pulling the trigger and having possession of illegal ammo and such. He's a bad witness, but I don't think he's a murderer because of all the other evidence that corroborates his version.

I think his emotion on the first day when he totally broke down was genuine and I believe that he feels a great deal of sorrow, shame and remorse and I don't really understand why that is so difficult to accept.

 

[Viper]

Trying to follow this. What is wrong?
.

IIRC. "Wrong" is the reply message that you get when someone is dumbfounded and has no other words to use in their reply to your post. "That is incorrect" is another option. :floorlaugh:

 

[lisasalinger]

All this discussion on the fans and length of their respective cords:
Have they been introduced into evidence?
Let's see them!

See attached screenshots

 

[BabaJ]

It is suggesting that OP knows very well that texts can and may be saved. OP is extremely worried about his image and what gets put out in the media. OP has stated that he called Reeva more often than he texted her. OP said that he preferred to say to her what he needed to on a phone call or in person. Just because there is no text to prove that OP was jealous and upset with Reeva for meeting her ex for coffee does not mean that he was fine and not upset with Reeva for meeting her ex for coffee. Even though OP claimed during his testimony that he was fine and not upset with Reeva for meeting her ex for coffee it does not mean that it was the truth. OP has lied on the stand.
MOO

I am not sure what to think about OP ie abuse but I know for the fact that my daughter's ex-boyfriend (who by the way beat her and raped her) was very reluctant to send any e-mails or texts, it was always "call me" or I will talk to you. He was NEVER abusive in front of us or majority of people, he was extremely careful about his image, there was NOTHING we could point out except the bad feeling, things not being quite right, she tiptoeing around him constantly and trying to make him happy. He was even called gentle by outsiders! He was also equally evasive at the court and NOTHING was ever his fault, you could never get straight answer, never admitted anything, everything was fine, it was her who provoked him, it was her who did this or that, he was presenting these half lies and half trues and it was veeery difficult to nail him down.

But I do not know with OP, the fact is that most relationships go through up and downs, there are fights and disagreements. I think that the problem is that it was a very short relationship in early stages. Maybe this is why some of the emails are so bothersome, they should be crazy in love, hanging on each other's word, maybe having sex all the time, etc., the problems usually come later, when people start getting used to each other. On the other hand, the relationship was very public, which is very hard.

MOO

 

[TrueDetective]

I think what's more important about the fans is that when they concocted the killer's story they used the fans in the beginning, then forgot about them.

In other words:

1. they needed OP to go onto the deck to explain why he didn't see Reeva get up out of bed. So they made up the go out on the deck and bring the fans inside fairy tale.

2. Then they needed a story that included OP screaming for help, so they made up the "I ran back to the deck and yelled help help help."

Here's the problem with making stuff up...

They forgot that the first part of the fairy tale included fans being placed in front of the door. When they made the part up about OP running back to the deck, he forgot that he would have needed to move the fans out of the way.

Oops.

Now the killer's story must now be that a) the fans weren't exactly where he claimed he moved them from the balcony, b) he forgot to mention he moved the fans out of the way when he went back on the deck, or c) the police somehow moved the fans into a position that makes him look like he's lying.

Oh, and small detail... the fans as he described them couldn't have both been plugged into outlets and he was in the room the entire time when Reeva allegedly got up out of bed to go to the bathroom.

Yes, the fans are a HUGE deal because they are the foundation for his entire alibi. And he's already admitted the part in the sworn affidavit was written by his attorneys and is materially false.

He's toast. And Nel is just getting started...

^
This.

Very succinct and this element alone represents a huge step forward for the PT

 

[kaos]

Well, I think his account is true for the most part despite being a baby and refusing to just take responsibility for pulling the trigger and having possession of illegal ammo and such. He's a bad witness, but I don't think he's a murderer because of all the other evidence that corroborates his version.

I think his emotion on the first day when he totally broke down was genuine and I believe that he feels a great deal of sorrow, shame and remorse and I don't really understand why that is so difficult to accept.

I mainly find it difficult to accept because I really don't believe the remorse is for Reeva at all. Her death was a mistake or an accident so how can he feel remorse about something he doesn't feel he's to blame for? His remorse is for the life and lifestyle he may have to give up.

 

[DebinGA]

I think his emotion on the first day when he totally broke down was genuine and I believe that he feels a great deal of sorrow, shame and remorse and I don't really understand why that is so difficult to accept.

I accept that as true and still think he murdered RS intentionally. Perhaps his first shot was meant to only frighten her into opening the door, but it hit her instead and there was no going back.

 

[BabaJ]

I'd like people to read the above cross, and then tell me that Nel is not doing a brilliant job. There is a method to his madness. He could not have dragged OP to this exact place, without first 'breaking him down' and making him a bit raw.

:jail: :liar:

I am not a lawyer so I cannot form opinion from a professional point of view, however, as a layman I LOVE how systematic he is. He is methodically peeling the layer after layer and you are waiting what is underneath. I think that the defence attorney was very good considering what he has to work with but OP does not seem to listen that well

 

[Lyra500]

Do you think his 'dream team' of lawyers are not on the ball? Or he's shooting his mouth off a bit too much on the stand? I'm starting to suspect a bit of both!

Well i am pretty gobsmacked by his performance so far and i am minded to think this is OP taking over and completely ignoring any guidance he has been given by his DT.

I simply cannot believe that Roux and his team have instructed OP to testify in this manner. Much of it has been a car crash and I am fairly sure dissing your DT and saying they mucked things up does not go down well in court......

Even in areas where one might suspect they have coached him to feed stuff in, it is done in such a rambling or crass way that i think they much just sit there all day wincing.

I know i keep harking back to emotional immaturity, but the way he carries on does seem like that rather annoying child whose stock phrase is "It's not my fault".

 

[katydid23]

Well I totally disagree that it's been proved that the fans were never on the balcony (or partially on the balcony or whatever). Nor do I think Nel proved that the fans couldnt have both been plugged in. Not at all. He's obviously trying to suggest that but he hasn't made his point at all.

But I'll say again, I don't think there's any way for the state to get around the evidence that the gunshots were at 3:00- 3:10, at which time Reeva died and could not have been the one screaming, and the cricket bat hit the door at 3:17. That's hard evidence that cannot and has not been explained by the state. No one who believes Oscar is guilty will even come close to addressing this - choosing instead to dismiss this and conclude that the witnesses who heard "a woman" screaming were all correct, despite the impossibility.

I don't think it matters that much. There could have easily been an argument between them when OP woke up at 3am. Maybe he was angry that she left the balcony doors open all night. So he threw her covers off and scolded her. She sits up, half asleep and argues back. Things get ugly, and she insults him. she runs to the bathroom, grabbing her cell. They argue through the door, him demanding that she leaves his home. 'GET OUT" he screams. His anger escalates so he decides to kick the door, then grabs his gun to scare her. She threatens to call the cops, and he cannot allow her to do so. He shoots in a rage.

ALL OF THAT WOULD FIT INTO THE TIME PUT FORTH BY THE DT

 

[lisasalinger]

I'd like people to read the above cross, and then tell me that Nel is not doing a brilliant job. There is a method to his madness. He could not have dragged OP to this exact place, without first 'breaking him down' and making him a bit raw.

:jail: :liar:

I absolutely agree with you whole-heartedly!!