Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[Lyra500]

Weren't the plastic bags the big rubbish bags used for bins? As for the rope and tape, well, the only time I've seen those used around a dead body is to wrap it up to dispose of it. On TV I hasten to add!! But they're not really first aid items in my opinion. Not by a long shot. On the other hand, the ambulance was already on its way by then (I think).

I found his comment about not going through Reeva's purse very strange. Why would he need to say that? It was defensive for no reason, unless there was a reason. Had he gone through it to check there was nothing in there that was incriminating against him? Was he checking for signs of cheating? I think the very fact he said he didn't go through her bag means he definitely went through her bag.

Me too. To me, just coming out with that unprompted indicates that is exactly what he DID do.

His behaviour is really quite toddlerish at times and any of us who have had kids may well recall a time when unprompted our darling ones suddenly piped up with "I didn't......." which then highlighted just exactly what misdeed they had indulged in.

 

[Gryffindor]

Steve, what's your hunch on what occurred, thus far, with evidence and testimonies presented to date?

Thank you

 

[kaos]

It's ironic that OP described Nel's persistence in asking him the whereabouts of the hair clippers, types of plugs used in which sockets etc as "insignificant" yesterday. Yet it's those tiny little details which neither OP nor his DT noticed that are turning out to be very significant indeed!

 

[minor4th]

I think OJ was kind of a psychopath and he had a long, documented history of domestic violence with various partners. His actions after the fact also indicate he is a psychopath IMO

Oscar is not a psychopath, and he does not have a history of domestic violence or even violence. Recklessness at times? Yes, but I don't know that it's the kind of recklessness that indicates a criminal mind - more indicative of bad judgment and immaturity.

It's been asked how can anyone believe anything he says at this point, and that's a fair question. I think anyone listening to his account should be skeptical from the start simply because he is a defendant and has a great incentive to fabricate a defense if he is really guilty. One never takes the word of a suspect or defendant at face value and assumes it's true. So, I certainly wouldn't believe him if there were evidence to prove that he has fabricated his version. Even if there's no evidence of such, I would remain very skeptical if the external evidence, forensics, phone data, ballistics etc didn't corroborate his story - but they do.

One more reason - and I know many disagree - but I found his extreme emotion on the first day to be very genuine, and I think it indicates that he feels horrible and that he does feel guilt and shame and sorrow. I have never seen that kind of emotion from a murder suspect who is unquestionably guilty.

So to answer the question - it's possible to believe his overall account because it is supported by other evidence and it is not contradicted or disproven by other evidence. And in addition, there is no evidence that even mildly suggests that he is a person who would fly in a rage at a girlfriend in the middle of the night and shoot her dead.

 

[IfIMay]

OP's gun is not automatic! Please. :facepalm: It is a semi-automatic 9mm pistol. It fires one bullet each time the trigger is pulled, just one.

he was explaining the difference as an add on to a previous comment. This one time :wink: I'll stand up for steve...bless his heart.

 

[jay-jay]

I was actually asking Lisa that question during a conversation we were having.

.. that doesn't really matter, because a number of posters answered your post, mine being one of them, and you responded to mine, so I responded back because you changed what you were saying.

Nevermind, I'm not getting back into this again .. I think I made my point about why abusers do not just finish relationships like you suggested OP should've done.

 

[TrueDetective]

Yes I have to agree.
It was odd when Nel said 7 hours and OP corrected him to 8 or maybe I just dreamed that lol .
Anyway I was very shocked that when he confirmed the time they ate and that he doubted that she could have eaten later.

I was absolutely jaw on floor amazed. This is a very important aspect of the prosecution and as there is such little physical evidence related to the actual charges with regard to intent - it is key to disproving his narrative so I was truly staggered by his answer.
It's obvious why but i'm beyond words actually.

Does. Not. Compute.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Some random thoughts after 3 days of watching OP under cross examination:

The term "Oscar World" is apt. This man seems to more disordered than most would have suspected. His thought patterns and responses are doing him no favors. This has to be going much better than Nel had even suspected it would.
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Oscar's sense of entitlement reigns supreme over any other consideration. Any.
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Reeva was different from any other girlfriend he'd had, not the least in that she was older and she had a "recognition factor" of her own. Not anywhere near as high as his, of course. But at the one event where they got into a fight on the way out (or in the car park according to Oscar) there were people wanting HER photo.
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OP is really, really "shooting himself in the foot" by criticizing his own attorneys while on the stand. A real no-no. And while Roux is an experienced professional, he has to be just livid about this.
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The longer and longer OP goes on like this - blaming everyone else for everything and in totally denying things that he could/should be acknowledging - the worse it gets for him. I'd think Nel will endeavor to keep him on the stand for as long as humanly possible. Perhaps even weeks, a la Jody Arias.
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Re: Oscar possibly having bulemia. Based on several references made by Oscar in both texts and in his own testimony, I feel he has some sort of a food issue. Don't know what exactly, but he references "they won't have the type of food I can eat" in talking about going to a party, then blames his bad humor on "I hadn't had anything to eat". Another time he talks about "not having eaten properly in a week". Just something I noticed.
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The video for that "B*tch don't kill my vibe" song is even worse! At the end the girlfriend is dead and in a coffin being buried, with people dancing on her grave. Uggghh!
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The question "why do they kill" has certainly been asked by so many of us here over the years. And we still have no firm answers. But the answer to the question "Who kills?" seems to be "disordered people". In so many of these trials the killer turns out to have been a long-time control freak, a "leading two different lives" type, or some other major personality distubance. Not outright psychotic, but disordered.
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I'm starting to get used to the South African system and I think I like it. It sure does bring out a whole lot more than the system in the U.S.
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I think Mi Lady's going to - with compassion - send him to jail for some period of time. Does she have the ability to order him to some kind of a psychiatric detention facility if she feels that would be appropriate?

 

[lisasalinger]

I think what's more important about the fans is that when they concocted the killer's story they used the fans in the beginning, then forgot about them.

In other words:

1. they needed OP to go onto the deck to explain why he didn't see Reeva get up out of bed. So they made up the go out on the deck and bring the fans inside fairy tale.

2. Then they needed a story that included OP screaming for help, so they made up the "I ran back to the deck and yelled help help help."

Here's the problem with making stuff up...

They forgot that the first part of the fairy tale included fans being placed in front of the door. When they made the part up about OP running back to the deck, he forgot that he would have needed to move the fans out of the way.

Oops.

Now the killer's story must now be that a) the fans weren't exactly where he claimed he moved them from the balcony, b) he forgot to mention he moved the fans out of the way when he went back on the deck, or c) the police somehow moved the fans into a position that makes him look like he's lying.

Oh, and small detail... the fans as he described them couldn't have both been plugged into outlets and he was in the room the entire time when Reeva allegedly got up out of bed to go to the bathroom.

Yes, the fans are a HUGE deal because they are the foundation for his entire alibi. And he's already admitted the part in the sworn affidavit was written by his attorneys and is materially false.

He's toast. And Nel is just getting started...

YES!! You are 100% correct here.

 

[Val1]

Pic showing that fan cord was not underneath the speaker,

The piece of cable at the front of the speaker is the easiest way of spotting this.



https://twitter.com/bradMentoor/status/454282614237851648/photo/1

I disagree, the shadow of the cord on the left side of the speaker shows it better.

 

[bloodmeridian]

Apologies to long time members, and 'posters of the subject', if this has been covered today already. *1st time poster* It's just leaping out of me, that I cannot recall anything in OP's affidavit (Bail Statement) regarding Reeva being "awake" near 3am, and saying: "Can't you sleep Baba?" It just dawned on me, why this would be beneficial to OP. If she was awake immediately prior to him bringing inside the fans (albeit - now we know he never went out on the balcony for them........furthermore.....the balcony light was on), it's makes it easier for him to claim that she was able/awake/aware enough to go to the bathroom (unbeknown to him, of course).

 

[DebinGA]

It's hard for me to imagine OP knowingly killing Reeva from what we know so far, but it's impossible for me to believe his intruder tale peppered with proven lies. So something RS did/said enraged him, and he reacted in a way he couldn't take back and she couldn't forget. Their "relationship" died instantly, and it became a "It's her or me" scenario in his selfish, narcissistic little mind ... as she couldn't be left to tell the tale imo.

 

[TrueDetective]

So, here's my overall take on the last couple of days of cross examination:

* Oscar is a bad witness. This could be due to a variety of factors, take your pick: He's lying and his whole story is falling apart; He's nervous and not thinking clearly; He's not very articulate; He's confused, etc

* Oscar does shift blame when it would suit him better to accept responsibility for some things and be done with it. I do think he feels a bit victimized about all of this - but that might be understandable if he's telling the truth and it really was a mistake and he didn't mean to kill Reeva. Nevertheless, he should be polished enough at this point to keep that mentality in check.

* I'm not sure what to think about the sunroof incident because he is very firm about that and his voice sounds confident and true - and I also don't think DF and ST are very reliable witnesses. Whichever way the judge goes on this, I wouldn't have a problem

* The Tasha's incident happened and there's no getting around that. Irrespective of Darren's own culpability, Oscar was negligent in the way that he handled the firearm and should receive a penalty for this transgression.

* Nel has effectively raised some questions about OP's ability and willingness to tell the complete and honest truth - or maybe it's better said that Nel has raised some questions about OP's ability to perceive events with accuracy and without defensiveness. If I were the judge at this point, I'd be wondering if there were things that OP left out or spun in his version ..enough that I would consider the whole ball of wax with skepticism, but I wouldn't be convinced that OP's overall account is false, especially since the physical evidence and phone call data and such do tend to corroborate his version.

* If the trial stopped right now, and if I were the judge, I would find him guilty of culpable homicide in the shooting, and I'd find him guilty of the negligent handling of firearm at Tasha's. Probably wouldn't find him guilty of the sunroof shooting only because the two prosecution witnesses both lack credibility and have secondary agendas.

* Based on those verdicts, I would sentence him to 8 years in jail (don't ask me why - it just seems an appropriate number) with a possibility for parole after 4 years.

* It's too bad the police screwed things up and went about the investigation in such a sloppy manner because it's now impossible to know if Nel really made a point about the fans and the various objects in the crime scene because those photos are simply not reliable.

I'd love to comment on all your points but I'm very tired!
But I'm relieved that in general your verdict is more balanced than I imagined. Some of your previous posts have lacked common sense and objectivity (with all due respect!) but clearly the past two days of the trial have not been good for OP and it is reassuring that even some of the more skeptical posters are viewing the proceedings with more clarity than I perceived.

However, I can safely say that your 8 year sentence with 4 years served is not where I'm currently at...

 

[soozieqtips]

Apologies to long time members, and 'posters of the subject', if this has been covered today already. *1st time poster* It's just leaping out of me, that I cannot recall anything in OP's affidavit (Bail Statement) regarding Reeva being "awake" near 3am, and saying: "Can't you sleep Baba?" It just dawned on me, why this would be beneficial to OP. If she was awake immediately prior to him bringing inside the fans (albeit - now we know he never went out on the balcony for them........furthermore.....the balcony light was on), it's makes it easier for him to claim that she was able/awake/aware enough to go to the bathroom (unbeknown to him, of course).

Hi there, and welcome!!

 

[Lyra500]

Apologies to long time members, and 'posters of the subject', if this has been covered today already. *1st time poster* It's just leaping out of me, that I cannot recall anything in OP's affidavit (Bail Statement) regarding Reeva being "awake" near 3am, and saying: "Can't you sleep Baba?" It just dawned on me, why this would be beneficial to OP. If she was awake immediately prior to him bringing inside the fans (albeit - now we know he never went out on the balcony for them........furthermore.....the balcony light was on), it's makes it easier for him to claim that she was able/awake/aware enough to go to the bathroom (unbeknown to him, of course).

Exactly.

So this latest fabrication probably seemed like a really good idea at some point, but it has raised a whole new set of discrepancies and questions, because if she was awake, then why didn't he notice that she did not answer him when he "whispered to her to call the police" (yet another alteration to his original statement). And how could he not notice her getting out of bed anyway in such a small room?

 

[steveml]

OP's gun is not automatic! Please. :facepalm: It is a semi-automatic 9mm pistol. It fires one bullet each time the trigger is pulled, just one.

If you took the time to read the thread of the post you wouldn't embarrass yourself so much.

Please read my post prior to the one you've quoted, and then respond.

Preferably without the sarcastic facepalm.

Thank you.

 

[BritsKate]

Apologies to long time members, and 'posters of the subject', if this has been covered today already. *1st time poster* It's just leaping out of me, that I cannot recall anything in OP's affidavit (Bail Statement) regarding Reeva being "awake" near 3am, and saying: "Can't you sleep Baba?" It just dawned on me, why this would be beneficial to OP. If she was awake immediately prior to him bringing inside the fans (albeit - now we know he never went out on the balcony for them........furthermore.....the balcony light was on), it's makes it easier for him to claim that she was able/awake/aware enough to go to the bathroom (unbeknown to him, of course).

Don't worry. If you wait around long enough he'll tell you he never said it and then say he never said he never said it.

(Yikes. This case is so, so bad for my grammar!) At any rate...
:welcome:

 

[Duchy]

N: You cocked it?

O: That's correct

N: A round came out?

O: I didn't *advertiser censored* it...

?????

:banghead:

 

[lisasalinger]

I think OJ was kind of a psychopath and he had a long, documented history of domestic violence with various partners. His actions after the fact also indicate he is a psychopath IMO

Oscar is not a psychopath, and he does not have a history of domestic violence or even violence. Recklessness at times? Yes, but I don't know that it's the kind of recklessness that indicates a criminal mind - more indicative of bad judgment and immaturity.

It's been asked how can anyone believe anything he says at this point, and that's a fair question. I think anyone listening to his account should be skeptical from the start simply because he is a defendant and has a great incentive to fabricate a defense if he is really guilty. One never takes the word of a suspect or defendant at face value and assumes it's true. So, I certainly wouldn't believe him if there were evidence to prove that he has fabricated his version. Even if there's no evidence of such, I would remain very skeptical if the external evidence, forensics, phone data, ballistics etc didn't corroborate his story - but they do.

One more reason - and I know many disagree - but I found his extreme emotion on the first day to be very genuine, and I think it indicates that he feels horrible and that he does feel guilt and shame and sorrow. I have never seen that kind of emotion from a murder suspect who is unquestionably guilty.

So to answer the question - it's possible to believe his overall account because it is supported by other evidence and it is not contradicted or disproven by other evidence. And in addition, there is no evidence that even mildly suggests that he is a person who would fly in a rage at a girlfriend in the middle of the night and shoot her dead.

BBM

Respectfully, I believe his story screams that it's molded TO the evidence.

I cannot agree that it hasn't been disproven, or at least parts of it thus far. Nel just started to cross-examine on the night in question so there is plenty more to go.

So far he has disproven:

1. The fans ever being on the balcony. They were not. There was no reason for Oscar to not see Reeva get up. His story states she was on the right side of the bed. He was standing right there. She did not get up mysteriously and slip past him in the immediate second that he closed the curtains. That didn't happen. It is not logical.

2. Both fans being plugged in and on, as Oscar testified. Nel proved that with his detailed examination of the plugs and locations of the fans and applying it to Oscar's story. It was not possible, didn't happen that way.

I predict there will be a lot more to come.

 

[kaos]

I think OJ was kind of a psychopath and he had a long, documented history of domestic violence with various partners. His actions after the fact also indicate he is a psychopath IMO

Oscar is not a psychopath, and he does not have a history of domestic violence or even violence. Recklessness at times? Yes, but I don't know that it's the kind of recklessness that indicates a criminal mind - more indicative of bad judgment and immaturity.

It's been asked how can anyone believe anything he says at this point, and that's a fair question. I think anyone listening to his account should be skeptical from the start simply because he is a defendant and has a great incentive to fabricate a defense if he is really guilty. One never takes the word of a suspect or defendant at face value and assumes it's true. So, I certainly wouldn't believe him if there were evidence to prove that he has fabricated his version. Even if there's no evidence of such, I would remain very skeptical if the external evidence, forensics, phone data, ballistics etc didn't corroborate his story - but they do.

One more reason - and I know many disagree - but I found his extreme emotion on the first day to be very genuine, and I think it indicates that he feels horrible and that he does feel guilt and shame and sorrow. I have never seen that kind of emotion from a murder suspect who is unquestionably guilty.

So to answer the question - it's possible to believe his overall account because it is supported by other evidence and it is not contradicted or disproven by other evidence. And in addition, there is no evidence that even mildly suggests that he is a person who would fly in a rage at a girlfriend in the middle of the night and shoot her dead.

After listening to him trying to work his way around the law regarding the ammo, his finger not being on the trigger at the Tasha, his determination to avoid saying he "killed" Reeva etc that when Oscar decides what his own 'truth' is - regardless of whatever points to the contrary - that he actually believes it enough that nothing will change his mind? So therefore his emotion will be real because he genuinely thinks he's done nothing wrong?