Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[Gbtaketwo]

Thank you so much for your response!

As far as Reeva's phone, I wonder if they determined what time she stopped using any application on it. Because Oscar contends that she was looking at pictures when he was "going to sleep." He said that she was playing with her phone when he went to sleep, IIRC. And then he says that when he awoke, she was still up. So that makes me think he is suggesting that she was still "playing with her phone" when he woke up. I don't think he ever said that outright - IIRC he didn't really say what she was actually doing when he woke up, just that she said something like "can't sleep Baba?" I guess he can't claim to say he knew what she was doing b/c that would imply that he saw her for longer than he says he did (when he went to get the fans). He says he never actually looked at her, oh except today he said he saw how the duvet was placed on her. But that was his own *mistake* getting all his lies and stories mixed up.

Then there is the question of, whether or not Oscar actually went to sleep or not. And I would think his Ipad activity would be some indication as to that. For example, if there is Ipad activity after his claimed sleep time, well then just more evidence he's lying. In contrast, if there is no Ipad activity, at least we can rule out that he was on his Ipad during his supposed sleeping.

JMO.

Nel may discuss the iPad use-age more or may just leave it .depends if there is anything on them that only OP could clarify
Guess we will just have to wait and see

 

[Gryffindor]

I hope you don't mind me answering. I was in a long-term abusive relationship with a man who was as sweet as honey to his first ex-wife. It's actually one of many things that made identifying my own abuse so difficult - he just didn't have a history of it that was recognizable - and everyone, everywhere claims there's always a history. But sometimes there just isn't.

Oscar's previous relationships had all been with people a lot younger, presumably more immature, but also more easily dominated. Reeva had already seen an abusive relationship from the 'inside', was older, presumably more mature, and independent. I don't think it's much of a stretch to conclude Reeva was very different than what Oscar was accustomed to - in many ways - and this likely led to conflict he may not have encountered in previous relationships.

JMO and FWIW

Thanks for reply.

Why not just finish with her then? Bit extreme to kill?

 

[Gavel Rash]

I've checked Juror13/lisa's blog and this seems to confirm what you've said there that OP went upstairs *before* the paramedics arrived ..

http://juror13lw.wordpress.com/2014/03/08/oscar-pistorius-trial-day-4/



.. so it does appear that OP *still* hasn't answered our question about what he was doing when he trotted off upstairs almost immediately after Dr Stipp examining Reeva, and before the ambulance arrived.

And he claims that Clarise was with him but we have not heard from Stander dad or daughter to know if this was true and the paramedics should be able to vouch for that as they were the ones that asked him for Reevas ID.

 

[kaos]

Because Nel has had his chance to go over any data that would help his case. I don't think there would be any reason to not present it during his own case and wait for the defense case.

I'm not convinced there isn't anything. Nel's obligation is to ensure full disclosure of his evidence and as long as the ipad and data itself have been entered then it means he can use it at any point he wants to during CE. He's alluded to both of them using the ipad and I can't believe he would have even introduced them as evidence if there was nothing to be gained from them.

 

[Bazinga]

Because he has since claimed that it was a very loving relationship, painted a flattering picture and possibly exaggerated the depth of feeling - He probably cared less about her than he suggests, therefore it questions his credibility and honesty - both of which are the crux of his defence.

Also it's important that Nel establish
- it was a short relationship
- he was NOT not deeply in love
- there had been arguing and poor treatment of Reeva in the relationship
This is so that he doesn't get a suspended or non custodial sentence with the reasoning that he has suffered so much already causing the death of his beloved.
(I think this is what happened in the other cases with a father shooting his daughter and a husband shooting his pregnant wife.)

 

[steveml]

I think I've sussed it. The one up bullet means not only do you have the magazine that holds a full round of 6? Bullets you have one ready loaded meaning you have 7 to go. So you would have to draw the slide to engage the magazine with its preloaded 6 rounds to go. This may account for the gap between the last four shots heard.

Very close :thumb:

Once there's a bullet in the chamber, and magazine loaded the gun's good to go, and you don't need to touch the slide, so no gap between shots.

The slide action is for the first bullet to load into the chamber. Once the first bullet fires, the next bullet is automatically ready. Hence, the name semi-automatic.

i.e. it doesn't stop after first bullet, it automatically uses magazine.

:smile:

 

[Gryffindor]

Very close :thumb:

Once there's a bullet in the chamber, and magazine loaded the gun's good to go, and you don't need to touch the slide, so no gap between shots.

The slide action is for the first bullet to load into the chamber. Once the first bullet fires, the next bullet is automatically ready. Hence, the name semi-automatic.

:smile:

Thanks Steve

So if there was a pause after the 1st shot, Oscar has deliberately paused. Nothing to do with the functioning/operation of the gun?

 

[liesbeth]

BIB. Here you go!

Oscar Pistorius trial: Police tampered with crime scene, says Blade Runner

In a period of fierce questioning, Mr Nel pointed out a series of objects in one picture which ran counter to Pistorius's account of events.

In response, the sprinter accused the police of tampering with the scene but Mr Nel ridiculed this suggestion.

"Let's sum up: A policeman moved the two fans, put the duvet on the floor, opened the curtains wider than they should be before the photographs were taken," Mr Nel said.

"Your version is so improbable that nobody would ever think it's reasonably possibly true... Your version is a lie."

http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-...-police-of-tampering-with-crime-scene/5382550

10 April this happened:

Nel: (photograph of the fan in the door on screen) If you now look at the photograph in terms of what shouldn't be there...What else is wrong there?

Long pause of about fifteen seconds.

OP: Well the fan couldn't have possibly been there, my Lady, because it's in the way of the doors opening.

Nel: Indeed. Indeed.

OP: I would have run out on to the balcony where I shouted for help and that fan would have been in the way so...

Nel: It never happened.

OP: So it must have been moved, my Lady.

Nel: It never happened. Because now you see it. That fan, in the position where it is there would have blocked you, would have made it difficult for you to close that door.

OP: (Very calm.) My Lady, the curtains as well on the left. I wouldn't have had time to move all the way along to open the curtains that much.

Nel: Yes.

OP: If I was in a hurry I would have just run where I did (slight hesitation) open the door, run out on to the balcony, I wouldn't have drawn the curtain all the way far to the left hand side.

Nel: You see, because, Mr. Pistorius, your version is a lie. You never closed that curtain, Mr. Pistorius, in the first instance. That's why you have to come up with things. Because now we have to look for a policeman that'll do the following: That moved the duvet to the carpet. That moved the fan back. That moved the curtain more open. Those three things, am I right?

OP: That's correct, My Lady.

Nel then goes on to say that this was never put to either Van Rensburg or Van Staden that these things were moved and that's strange because if they had moved it, they would in fact have been interfering in OP's defense.

 

[steveml]

Thanks Steve

So if there was a pause after the 1st shot, Oscar has deliberately paused. Nothing to do with the functioning/operation of the gun?

You got it :smile:

 

[Viper]

So it can account for the gap between first shot and 3 following shots?

No. After the bullet that is in the chamber is fired the slide kicks back ejecting the empty casing and a new bullet cartridge is fed in to the chamber from the magazine. That continues until all of the bullets in the magazine are fired, then the slide remains in the open position. Go to YouTube.

The pause between the shots is Oscar pausing to locate Reeva and take aim at her blood curdling screams.

 

[Gavel Rash]

You got it :smile:

That's horrible and premeditated.

 

[steveml]

Because Nel has had his chance to go over any data that would help his case. I don't think there would be any reason to not present it during his own case and wait for the defense case.

I agree,

Also Roux's already seen everything that's in there. I can't see him leaving something too incriminating for OP to deal with.

He's already said enough me thinks :wink:

 

[Fuskier]

Can anybody ever adequately explain why people kill?

People kill for all sorts of ridiculous reasons and rarely can anybody predict it, unless the person is a straight up psychopath.

Why did OJ kill Nicole? He wasn't a psychopath. He had everything to lose.

These things are not logical.

'Murderous rage' is one possibility. Pre-conceived ideation/imagination about wanting to kill: (fascination with guns, shooting practice with guns on watermelons, previous 'risky' incidents with guns in restaurant, car; choice of black talon bullets designed to do maximum damage to target when shot, etc).
Precipitator to 'murderous rage'? Announcing the end of the relationship? Suspected of seeing a previous lover?
If the pre-conceived ideation was lingering, mixed with possible emotional instability, then in the heat of an argument, it could have been triggered.
Wanting to shoot to kill in 'tunnel vision' 'blind rage' before the act is one frame of mind IMO. Significant 'discharge' of rage is released with the act of shooting.
Then when one realises the reality of your own actions: the social consequences after the act is another frame of mind IMO. This is where the rationalisation takes place. One could conjure up the intruder story to obfuscate the facts and justify one's actions. This may seem an acceptable explanation to unsuspecting/gullible others.

One fact is clear, that Reeva was locked in the toilet when he shot her through the door.

 

[TrueDetective]

I reckon that's going to be Colonel Motha.. ( purse your little lips a bit.--> MuerT <-- sharp td.. haa) .. he was flitting around taking odd pics and photos...

the thing is. Oscar isn't too happy with how the Colonel 'looked after him'..

OP doesn't shy away from critiquing others and accusing them things - poor ability, lying etc.

It's almost as if he is comparing his normal, 5-star celebrity treatment with one of, if not THE most serious situation in the normal (real) world. The same rules do not and should not apply, but his sense of entitlement is so powerful and obvious it has twisted his approach to his defence and his own testimony. Really quite bizarre to me and very unsettling but probably rather typical in celebrity cases?

 

[Gavel Rash]

Sorry to eat & run big day ahead...huge day for Reeva coming today. :seeya:

 

[Viper]

10 April this happened:

Nel: (photograph of the fan in the door on screen) If you now look at the photograph in terms of what shouldn't be there...What else is wrong there?

Long pause of about fifteen seconds.

OP: Well the fan couldn't have possibly been there, my Lady, because it's in the way of the doors opening.

Nel: Indeed. Indeed.

OP: I would have run out on to the balcony where I shouted for help and that fan would have been in the way so...

Nel: It never happened.

OP: So it must have been moved, my Lady.

Nel: It never happened. Because now you see it. That fan, in the position where it is there would have blocked you, would have made it difficult for you to close that door.

OP: (Very calm.) My Lady, the curtains as well on the left. I wouldn't have had time to move all the way along to open the curtains that much.

Nel: Yes.

OP: If I was in a hurry I would have just run where I did (slight hesitation) open the door, run out on to the balcony, I wouldn't have drawn the curtain all the way far to the left hand side.

Nel: You see, because, Mr. Pistorius, your version is a lie. You never closed that curtain, Mr. Pistorius, in the first instance. That's why you have to come up with things. Because now we have to look for a policeman that'll do the following: That moved the duvet to the carpet. That moved the fan back. That moved the curtain more open. Those three things, am I right?

OP: That's correct, My Lady.

Nel then goes on to say that this was never put to either Van Rensburg or Van Staden that these things were moved and that's strange because if they had moved it, they would in fact have been interfering in OP's defense.

^^^^THIS^^^^

So I was not the only person listening to him and thinking, "I. Can. Not. Believe. This." Waiting for Oscar to confess in 3, 2, 1 ... :yes:

 

[jay-jay]

Thanks Lisa.

He'd had plenty girlfriends previously and one lasting about 3 years. I wonder what made him risk everything by shooting this one particular girl after only a few months?

Well, there have been quite a lot of comments around on the net dissing Reeva and insinuating she deserved it/she drove him to it .. but quite honestly, I couldn't give a toss what she was like or whether she wasn't actually the perfect person being portrayed because at the end of the day, it doesn't matter *what* someone is like or anything they may have done, they do NOT deserve to be pumped full of dum dum bullets through a toilet cubicle door.

 

[minor4th]

I'm not convinced there isn't anything. Nel's obligation is to ensure full disclosure of his evidence and as long as the ipad and data itself have been entered then it means he can use it at any point he wants to during CE. He's alluded to both of them using the ipad and I can't believe he would have even introduced them as evidence if there was nothing to be gained from them.

Well I'm not sure either. I think there's nothing more though.

 

[steveml]

That's horrible and premeditated.

It does sound that way. With fully automatic you only squeeze the trigger once and all the bullets fire one after the other.

There's no subtlety in the way guns operate I'm afraid.

 

[Lyra500]

Thanks Lisa.

He'd had plenty girlfriends previously and one lasting about 3 years. I wonder what made him risk everything by shooting this one particular girl after only a few months?

I really hope we aren't going there again after some of those earlier posts had to be removed.

I think he is incredibly emotionally immature and Reeva unlike his other girls that we know of was an independent accomplished mature woman. Given OPs proven moodiness and his trigger happy nature i really do not see why a shooting in the midst of a row seems such a stretch to consider. Although she was obviously doing a lot to try and please him, i doubt she was a total naive pushover, so she could quite easily have done or said something which offended his sense of self importance and triggered a rage.