Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[crasshopper]

The question also is: why didn't Reeva switch on any lights on the way to the bathroom?

At least a lamp, especially as they were both awake.

 

[molly333]

The question also is: why didn't Reeva switch on any lights on the way to the bathroom?

That's an excellent question. They were both up, so it's not like she was going to wake anyone up. And why did he try to do all that fan business in the pitch dark, for that matter. Especially since he was on stumps, easy to trip over those stupid extension cords, etc.

That's a key question.

 

[jassy writer]

Yes, especially given that those extension cords must have been stretched so tight after moving the fans to the position OP indicated, they'd actually have been off the floor, lol!

 

[Whiteorchids]

At least a lamp, especially as they were both awake.

I go to the bathroom all the time without turning on a light. Why didn't OP turn on the lights to bring in the fans?

 

[Whiteorchids]

We were thinking the same Lol

 

[crasshopper]

What do people think about the fact that Reeva was dressed? Why would she be wearing shorts and top in the middle of the night? Had she decided to leave instead of spending the night?

Especially as
1) she reportedly had night attire in her bag by the bed
2) it was valentine's day

...even if they were being low key she would have at least been in PJ's or maybe one of his T shirts had they really retired to bed after an uneventful eveving.

I think he threw in the "Reeva had done yoga" to explain her wearing the clothes she was found in.

 

[Rumpole]

I have not forgotten it. I accept that people have testified to screams. I certainly do not think they are lying (though I see signs of them "massaging" their testimony)

I don't have to reconcile that. I KNOW what the sequence of events was.

I don't doubt they heard screams, but they did not SEE who uttered the screams. The are simply mistaken about it being Reeva (she was already dead).

Quoting myself... sorry, I'll try not to let it happen again

I just wanted to comment that this illustrates perfectly how the evidence (and the case) looks quite different if you have a presumption of innocence, rather than a presumption of guilt.

With a presumption of guilt you reject the simple logical explanation, if it is at odds with that guilty notion. Even to the point of denying the State's own physical evidence and expert testimony, in favour of the assumptions made by witnesses. A logical approach is to reject those assumptions once they are shown to be wrong by the physical evidence (reality)

 

[molly333]

Yes, especially given that those extension cords must have been stretched so tight after moving the fans to the position OP indicated, they'd actually have been off the floor, lol!

lol. I can't believe they don't have central ac in those fancy houses.

Did you understand his description of putting the fan halfway onto the balcony and then closing the curtains around the fan? I couldn't figure out what he was saying there.

Why did he close the balcony doors at all if it was so hot? He woke up hot. The fan moving around hot air wasn't going to help much.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I mainly agree. I am not sure if it is OP or his defence team (advising him to not talk) that has a lot to answer for. I wrote some days back that if OP had not lawyered up and refused to talk to the police even with a lawyer present, had he accepted his blame, had he pleaded guilty on the various minor gun law charges instead of ridiculously denying them and calling friends and family liars, (for OP even his dad is a liar now having refused to own up to the ammunition being his), this case could have been settled with a guilty to culpable homicide plea and asking mercy of the judge who could give him 0-15 years for the offence, avoiding OP having to go through all of this torture to himself while maintaining his dignity, credibility and face which he has lost in these three days of questioning.

That said as you say I also think he should be punished. Personally I am doubtful OP premeditated or intended to kill Reeva and I don't think the prosecution will prove this. I do think it more probable than not he intended to kill a burglar if it is true he believed there was one. I think either he got in a rage or he recklessly jumped to the conclusion there was a burglar and unconscionably and recklessly shot through a door without ascertaining whether Reeva was safe, and whether they were being threatened because imo, and under SA law which is more important here, even a burglar cannot be summarily despatched. I think he should be convicted, just not sure whether murder (via transferred intent from the burglar), or of culpable homicide. I think he is sorry for but he has still has not accepted his blame and therefore his repentance is more to do with the effects this has had on him. I also think it despicable that he should ambush her family with an apology giving them no option but to listen to it when he had never done so in private whether in writing or personally.

I would have preferred to think that he had shot her accidentally but have always struggled with the lack of plausibility of how Reeva could have got into the toilet under those circumstances which is why I have leaned towards he likely shot at Reeva in anger .
His apology did make me feel sick to my stomach especially when he said he could smell Reeva's blood .
I don't know whether Nel will get the truth out of him but I hope he does for Reeva's parents . They have said they want the truth more than anything else .
When I said I felt sad for him it was because he has worked so hard through the adversity of his disability to throw it all away in a split second of rage with the tragic result of taking reeva's life He has done this all to himself and will be punished severely. With different guidance in the beginning he may have saved Reeva's parents the ordeal of this trial . I also feel that whilst he is sorry for killing Reeva he is more sorry for himself .
I was wondering about whether his defence team have been partly to blame for his fantasy version that now has him so confused he may not ever be able to speak the truth . My own son who is 20 has said that OP will now probably think some of his own lies are the truth.
If Nel is as good at his job as his reputation maybe just maybe he might unravel it and give Reeva's family what they are seeking the most .
As they say though nothing will bring Reeva back .

 

[molly333]

Yes, especially given that those extension cords must have been stretched so tight after moving the fans to the position OP indicated, they'd actually have been off the floor, lol!

lol! I can't believe they don't have central ac in those fancy houses.

Did you understand his description of putting the fan halfway onto the balcony and then closing the curtains around the fan? I couldn't figure out what he was saying there.

Why did he close the balcony doors at all if it was so hot? He woke up hot. The fan moving around hot air wasn't going to help much.

And, the little fan--did that make sense to anyone? How was that going to help? The whole fan thing seems very contrived.

Oops. Double post.

 

[Whiteorchids]

Especially as
1) she reportedly had night attire in her bag by the bed
2) it was valentine's day

...even if they were being low key she would have at least been in PJ's or maybe one of his T shirts had they really retired to bed after an uneventful eveving.

I think he threw in the "Reeva had done yoga" to explain her wearing the clothes she was found in.

I found that odd too. Here it is your first Valentines day together as a loving couple. That is the most celebrated day for couples. The day of romance and love. Didn't seem very romantic did it? Hmmm

At 3am wouldn't RS first words to OP have been Happy Valentines Day Baba? Nothing was said but "You can't sleep"

 

[Linda7NJ]

Was there any good reason to put OP on the stand?



Personally, I can't think of one.

I read somewhere he doesn't get a choice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[nastasya]

That is IMPOSSIBLE... and it didn't happen that way. OP shot the door at the earlier time of bangs (3:00 - 3:10) and then it took 5 minute (or more) to do all the stuff that was clearly done, irrespective of whose version.

Door was already damaged by bat. OP testified to this. First hit created crack in the door.

5 witnesses heard terrified woman screaming followed by gunshots, and silence.

All the things you cited that OP claimed to do are not fact. All he had to do was pull out the door panels. He called Stander, not police or an ambulance. Stander didn't call for an ambulance. He told Baba everything was fine.

OP carried victim down the steps. Arterial blood spurts caused drops over the railing into sitting room.

If victim was shot in the head 10 minutes earlier, there would have been pools of blood on the bathroom floor, and no arterial blood splatter.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

BBM


But that only works if you take his version of events as factual. My problem is this: since he knew she was already awake when he woke up, why did he do everything in pitch darkness? Why did he pull the blackout curtains shut and walk around in total darkness on his stumps, to try and set up and plug in fans?

OP will say, considerateness was the reason.
But this word in connection with him is arguably laughable, I would say.

 

[nastasya]

No new evidence of any loud bangs other than the gunshots at 3:00 and cricket bat hitting the door at 3:17. Surely you will concede that is the case?

What caused the arterial blood splatter over the railing at 3:23?

Do you believe victim's heart was still pumping blood 20 minutes later?

Then why no large pool of blood in the toilet area or bathroom?

 

[molly333]

Especially as
1) she reportedly had night attire in her bag by the bed
2) it was valentine's day

...even if they were being low key she would have at least been in PJ's or maybe one of his T shirts had they really retired to bed after an uneventful eveving.

I think he threw in the "Reeva had done yoga" to explain her wearing the clothes she was found in.

So do you think it's looking like they didn't go to bed at all? The other issue is stomach contents--didn't they say Reeva had eaten two hours before she died?

That means 1am instead of 7pm.

What will the defense do about that? Any blood tests on alcohol?

 

[asanque]

With a presumption of guilt you reject the simple logical explanation, if it is at odds with that guilty notion. Even to the point of denying the State's own physical evidence and expert testimony, in favour of the assumptions made by witnesses. A logical approach is to reject those assumptions once they are shown to be wrong by the physical evidence (reality)

Lets hold this discussion until after the Standers testify.

Unless you have proof that they arrived at 3:24 (5 minutes exactly after the call by OP).

I would have thought they would have arrived closer to 3:45 which would give OP ample time to put on his prosthetics (evidence is that it only takes a minute to put on), break open the weakened door and retrieve Reeva.

This would then explain the arterial blood as well.

 

[molly333]

I found that odd too. Here it is your first Valentines day together as a loving couple. That is the most celebrated day for couples. The day of romance and love. Didn't seem very romantic did it? Hmmm

At 3am wouldn't RS first words to OP have been Happy Valentines Day Baba? Nothing was said but "You can't sleep"

I know. Talking to his cousin on Valentine's Day? Playing on Ipads and telephones? Going to sleep? lol

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I would have preferred to think that he had shot her accidentally but have always struggled with the lack of plausibility of how Reeva could have got into the toilet under those circumstances which is why I have leaned towards he likely shot at Reeva in anger .
His apology did make me feel sick to my stomach especially when he said he could smell Reeva's blood .
I don't know whether Nel will get the truth out of him but I hope he does for Reeva's parents . They have said they want the truth more than anything else .
When I said I felt sad for him it was because he has worked so hard through the adversity of his disability to throw it all away in a split second of rage with the tragic result of taking reeva's life He has done this all to himself and will be punished severely. With different guidance in the beginning he may have saved Reeva's parents the ordeal of this trial . I also feel that whilst he is sorry for killing Reeva he is more sorry for himself .
I was wondering about whether his defence team have been partly to blame for his fantasy version that now has him so confused he may not ever be able to speak the truth . My own son who is 20 has said that OP will now probably think some of his own lies are the truth.
If Nel is as good at his job as his reputation maybe just maybe he might unravel it and give Reeva's family what they are seeking the most .
As they say though nothing will bring Reeva back .

Think also of the entire 2 families of both sides and all the witnesses.

 

[nastasya]

I'm really glad to hear that. The thought of Reeva screaming while he was shooting her was too much to bear. I am new on this case and don't know all the details yet. But, what I do know is giving me a huge headache.

Do you think the prosecution will be able to prove anything?

Maybe the thought of Reeva's hands being up to protect her head after first shot hit her hip proves she feared for her life for only a second before her arm was ripped apart, and then her head fatally hit.

Unlikely that she only feared for her life for such a short moment.

5 witnesses so far testified they heard a woman screaming blood curdling screams of terror just before gunshots, then silence.

Contrary to what is being portrayed by some here, every bit of the direct evidence (other than OP's testimony) points to at least 10 minutes of loud screaming by a woman and a man, which ended in gun shots.