Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[wb180]

You mean Vermuelen who said he hadn't tested the higher mark to see if it matched a cricket bat ..but then it turned out there was photo evidence of him doing exactly that, but somehohw he forgot or misplaced those photos when he was telling Van Staden which pictures to put in the album?

Those forensics people?

Ok ...

Yep it was Vermuelen - didn't he say that the lower marks were done by cricket bat with stumps on and Roux argued you could do the same with legs on but you have to bent your back?

As for the higher marks, is your argument that he has low credibility because of the photos doing it etc?

 

[my2sense]

I haven't been following on Websleuths, but I have been following the trial and watching on Youtube. Would someone who knows how put up a poll on whether they think OP is telling the truth or lying? I have to say, he's very convincing -- probably the most convincing defendant I've ever heard and I am an avid trial watcher. I'm curious to see what percentage of people on here think he is lying or telling the/his truth.

 

[Viper]

Why is this so difficult to understand for so many people? I truly do not understand what the barrier is to understanding this.

I suspect, from your observations here, that the judge will find it equally difficult to understand.

 

[asanque]

Then you must also contend that the Stipps were lying when they said they heard gunshots at 3:00 and when the state's experts said the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

Is that what you believe?

My contention is that the loud bangs could have been something other than gunshots (doors banging etc).

As repeated by others, the state's experts said that the gunshots happened before the panel broke (it does not exclude the possibility of the bat hitting the door elsewhere first).

All witnesses are consistent that around 3:17 there were gunshots.

If you contend that the 3:17 sounds were the cricket bat, you must also concede that the 3:00 sounds also could have been something else.

Otherwise, your contention appears to be that some other random woman was screaming for her life at 3:00 a.m. (or OP as a woman). Despite witnesses saying that they heard two different sounds of screaming.

 

[molly333]

Um no ... the gunshots were at 3:00, and they killed Reeva.

The screaming was heard after that - which means it couldn't have been Reeva screaming. Which means that the screaming that was heard was OP or some unrelated non-Reeva person.

Doesn't matter what Nel does with Oscar's cross examination - there's no way around that evidence that completely refutes the witnesses' belief that they heard Reeva screaming. Without that there is absolutely no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, of premeditation.

I'm really glad to hear that. The thought of Reeva screaming while he was shooting her was too much to bear. I am new on this case and don't know all the details yet. But, what I do know is giving me a huge headache.

Do you think the prosecution will be able to prove anything?

 

[Rumpole]

I contend that OP shot Reeva just on 3:17.

OP knew he had shot Reeva and followed with the 3:19 call immediately afterwards.

Do you mean OP was so cunning he started setting the scene and his alibi up within seconds?

He did not want to just check and see if the shots hit her at all? Check to see if she was alive??

Even IF THAT is true... OP still had to do all the stuff? It is still impossible

There was not just one phone call there were 3... and he STILL had to go get bat, bash door, put his legs on drag Reevas body to bathroom,... go downstairs,... back up... carry Reeva... people were arriving by 3:24 or so.

 

[Rumpole]

I suspect, from your observations here, that the judge will find it equally difficult to understand.

She looks smart to me. She will get it I am sure.

She will also be assessing all this from a perspective of a presumption of innocence.

It will look quite different from how it looks to most forum members, who have a presumption of guilt.

 

[molly333]

What do people think about the fact that Reeva was dressed? Why would she be wearing shorts and top in the middle of the night? Had she decided to leave instead of spending the night?

 

[rachael123]

i don't despise OP or want him guilty of murder.He did commit murder.<modsnip>

No there hasn't. It's still there and it's still not explained by the state and it still can't be ignored no matter how much anyone despises OP or wants him to be guilty of murder.

It's not an argument, by the way, it's a recitation of the evidence. It speaks for itself.

 

[asanque]

Do you mean OP was so cunning he started setting the scene and his alibi up within seconds?

Even IF THAT is true... OP still had to do all the stuff? It is still impossible

There was not just one phone call there were 3... and he STILL had to go get bat, bash door, put his legs on drag Reevas body to bathroom,... go downstairs,... back up... carry Reeva... people were arriving by 3:24 or so.

It was interesting he called Stander first and not the emergency unit.

I would also note OP's version that Netcare asked him to 'bring Reeva' in rather than sending an ambulance.

Quickly followed by telling security that 'everything is fine'.

By the time the first independent witness arrived, Reeva was already downstairs. Can someone confirm a time?

It doesn't appear to be 3:24.

Are we also sure he didn't have his legs on at the time? I believe one of the witnesses testified they saw him from the bathroom window.

He likely already had the bat making it easier to bash the door down.

 

[minor4th]

She looks smart to me. She will get it I am sure.

She will also be assessing all this from a perspective of a presumption of innocence.

It will look quite different from how it looks to most forum members, who have a presumption of guilt.

I have no doubt at all that she'll get it.

 

[molly333]

It was interesting he called Stander first and not the emergency unit.

I would also note OP's version that Netcare asked him to 'bring Reeva' in rather than sending an ambulance.

Quickly followed by telling security that 'everything is fine'.

By the time the first independent witness arrived, Reeva was already downstairs. Can someone confirm a time?

It doesn't appear to be 3:24.

Are we also sure he didn't have his legs on at the time? I believe one of the witnesses testified they saw him from the bathroom window.

He likely already had the bat making it easier to bash the door down.

What are the theories about why he would bring her downstairs?

What purpose would that serve?

 

[minor4th]

What do people think about the fact that Reeva was dressed? Why would she be wearing shorts and top in the middle of the night? Had she decided to leave instead of spending the night?

Strangely, Reeva being dressed in shorts and t shirt has not been addressed by either the state or defense.

 

[Trooper]

Correction: We don't know where gun was when OP made mystery trip upstairs.
The odd part is Stander claims to know the gun was secured. Why would he lie?

Why would Stander NOT be worried about OP killing himself, while Stipp is worried?

Conclusion is if Stander thought the gun was secured then Mystery trip was for OP to place the gun on the mat outside the shower to complete the illusion. Maybe even put the phone under the mat.

Btw, how did phone get under the mat if OP tried using it to call for help? If Nel decimated OP's story on the fans, I'm sure the bathroom testimony will be even more damning.

* bangs own head.*.. why on earth would I believe that the gun , just because it lay in the bathroom when police got there, had always been there?? I don't know!!..

if it was somewhere else.. I do think it would be Oscar and only Oscar who would shift it back into the bathroom .. on the grounds that only Oscar would be silly enough to do this with the thing ready to fire, .. I give Clarice credit for more brains than this..

The odd part is Stander claims to know the gun was secured. Why would he lie?I gave him a pass on this, because he is around 60 and probably got the fright of his life.. but .. hey.. why should I ?? Stipp is one of his clients re security too, so .. It does seem a bit odder now..

Conclusion is if Stander thought the gun was secured then Mystery trip was for OP to place the gun on the mat outside the shower to complete the illusion. Maybe even put the phone under the mat....and not an improbable conclusion at all. I cant come at Standar thinking this up, but Oscar?? for sure.. mainly in panic, not in intellectual analysis.

Btw, how did phone get under the mat if OP tried using it to call for help? If Nel decimated OP's story on the fans, I'm sure the bathroom testimony will be even more damning... in spades, and there is a hell of lot of infilling to be examined downstairs pre Police arrival. and pre paramedics, too. big chunks of time there..

 

[Rumpole]

It was interesting he called Stander first and not the emergency unit.

I would also note OP's version that Netcare asked him to 'bring Reeva' in rather than sending an ambulance.

Quickly followed by telling security that 'everything is fine'.

By the time the first independent witness arrived, Reeva was already downstairs. Can someone confirm a time?

It doesn't appear to be 3:24.

Are we also sure he didn't have his legs on at the time? I believe one of the witnesses testified they saw him from the bathroom window.

He likely already had the bat making it easier to bash the door down.

Was he walking around with the bat, but then took his legs off to shoot, and then put his legs back on again? Even more time. And kinda silly to imagine him doing that?

There is clear evidence of two events that made bangs. Two sets of bangs heard, and times known (at least roughly). The State evidence is that gun shots were first.

I really can not see why people do not grasp what the sequence of events was in this case.

 

[Whiteorchids]

When guests have stayed with us many times in the hot summer here in Cali I've heard the bathroom window slide open during the night and asked through the door if everything was ok? I didn't start shooting through the door or even have a gun in my hand.

I'm not buying OP's story at all. I find it ludicrous and think he's had over a year to come up with these details. All his random accidentally firing of guns that he didn't pull the trigger. I'm not buying his BS. I think he is as cool and smooth as a cucumber on the outside and is a real hot head, high tempered, arrogant narcissist on the inside.

 

[asanque]

What are the theories about why he would bring her downstairs?

What purpose would that serve?

I can only hypothesise that like many incidents of domestic abuse out of anger, maybe he felt remorse immediately afterwards and was genuinely trying to get her help.

 

[Harmony 2]

Please do not post negative characterizations about other’s opinions. Everyone gets to state their opinion and all are on equal footing. Posts should be about the content of the information in a post. If you disagree with the content explain why, provide links and evidence to back you up.

 

[minor4th]

Listening to Tricia's radio show about this case that she did earlier tonight:

http://www.spreaker.com/user/triciag

Did anyone catch this live?

 

[molly333]

Strangely, Reeva being dressed in shorts and t shirt has not been addressed by either the state or defense.

That's interesting. I would think it would favor the prosecution more than the defense.

I saw today's testimony with the fan nonsense. That picture of the fan and duvet does kind of destroy Oscar's testimony. They will have to prove it was changed from the original. I did see another picture where the cord on the desk was in a different location. So maybe they can.

But there seems to be so little space between the sliding doors and the bed, that even with the fans where OP said they would be, Reeva would have to get out of bed on his side, or she would run into fans and cords in the dark room, anyways. That whole set up looked very dangerous. Not that it's an issue anymore. Just strange.