Trial Discussion Thread #22 - 14.04.10, Day 20

[nastasya]

I'm a long way from giving Clarice a free pass, though.. Clarice zipping here and there , contaminating this and that, Clarice being the hostess, greeting everyone at the door, taking it upon herself to indicate to VanRensburg who did what , and why and when, using Oscars phone to call Oscars friends.. (who bought that phone downstairs? how did that phone get downstairs?) Clarice talking to and , as Roux yelled, comforting Oscar, Clarice in the kitchen, in the laundry, upstairs, downstairs, in the hallway, .....

The only thing keeping the Standers from being implicated in any conspiracy after the fact is that they will vouch for each other. If OP goes down I wouldn't be surprised if he throws them under the bus.

 

[nastasya]

The state's case is that the gunshots were at 3:17 but that's refuted by their own witnesses who heard gunshots around 3:00 and by their forensic experts who said the gunshots had to have happened before the cricket bat hitting the door.

The forensic expert did NOT say the shot had to have happened before the cricket bat hit the door. No matter how many times you repeat that it doesn't make it true.

The bat was used to break an opening in the door. OP stated this in his own testimony.

The bullet hole came before the wood panel was broken out of the door, not before the bat hit the door.

Every witness testified to the same thing:

Woman's terrified screams - gunshots - silence.

Maybe you should go back and watch the testimony of the expert.

 

[Rumpole]

You are still on the "bat before gunshot sounds gunshot before bat sounds page?" There has been so much evidence since that defense argument. Evidence that cancels out and decides that argument. IMHO

Do you contend that having shot Reeva starting after 3:17, OP then remained "focused" and in just over a minute he had time to go to the bedroom and put on his legs... go to balcony and scream... grab cricket bat... go back to bathroom... bash door with bat (very very quietly)... drag Reeva's body out... and then start with the 3:19 phone call and all that followed after that?

That is IMPOSSIBLE... and it didn't happen that way. OP shot the door at the earlier time of bangs (3:00 - 3:10) and then it took 5 minute (or more) to do all the stuff that was clearly done, irrespective of whose version.

I dont know why this is still an issue for some... especially Nel. He has shown signs of conceding the point already as he covers OP's reaction to "the intruder" I am sure Nel knows that the 3:17 time is nonsense... I think he will abandon his "supporters"... maybe people should get ahead of the play and let the silly "3:17 shots" notion go

 

[Viper]

No there hasn't. It's still there and it's still not explained by the state and it still can't be ignored no matter how much anyone despises OP or wants him to be guilty of murder.

It's not an argument, by the way, it's a recitation of the evidence. It speaks for itself.

And... Please go on about there not being new evidence... opcorn:

 

[wb180]

I still am confused with the times because I am still not sure whether he was his legs or on his stumps when he had the cricket bat

 

[Fuskier]

I'm not brushing off evidence and it gets kind of personal when you respond to a post with "this is absolute nonsense."

Stipp's heard gunshots at 3:00 ...and again at 3:17.

The state's case is that the gunshots were at 3:17 but that's refuted by their own witnesses who heard gunshots around 3:00 and by their forensic experts who said the gunshots had to have happened before the cricket bat hitting the door.

Gunshots at 3:00 - heard by Dr Stipp and Mrs Stipp

Screaming after the gunshots - heard by Stipps, Burger, Johnson - couldnt have been Reeva since she died after being shot at 3:00.

Cricket bat hitting the door at 3:17 - heard by Dr Stipp, Mrs. Stipp, Merwe, Burger and Johnson, all of whom thought these were also gunshots because they sound the same.

Loud crying after 3:17 - heard by Merwe and the Stipps - this was Oscar as well.

No matter how often and how stridently this is dismissed or ignored or avoided - that's the evidence. And it means that the "woman" screaming after the gunshots could not have been Reeva. What kind of barrier is there that this simple information cannot penetrate awareness?

Hypothetically, it's possible Oscar cried POST EVENT once he realised what he had done 'in rage' was permanent. One is capable of both 'rage' pre-event and 'grief' post-event once the 'rage has been discharged. This does not detract from his intentions PRE EVENT.

REEVA had locked herself in the toilet with a key. What threat had she tried to protect herself from? Witnesses heard an argument. Witnesses heard a woman's terrified screams. This is not to be dismissed IMO.

 

[minor4th]

And... Please go on about there not being new evidence... opcorn:

No new evidence of any loud bangs other than the gunshots at 3:00 and cricket bat hitting the door at 3:17. Surely you will concede that is the case?

 

[minor4th]

Hypothetically, it's possible Oscar cried POST EVENT once he realised what he had done 'in rage' was permanent. One is capable of both 'rage' pre-event and 'grief' post-event once the 'rage has been discharged. This does not detract from his intentions PRE EVENT.

REEVA had locked herself in the toilet with a key. What threat had she tried to protect herself from? Witnesses heard an argument beforehand. This is not to be dismissed IMO.

But the State's entire case for premeditation rests on their assertion that Reeva was heard screaming before she died.

Turns out, she wasn't and couldn't have been heard screaming when the witnesses heard "a woman" screaming.

So ...whatever else there is to speculate about, the state's case for premeditation and intentionally killing Reeva is down the drain.

If you want to talk about culpable homicide as something that can be proved - then that's a different discussion and the state's still in it on that charge.

 

[minor4th]

I still am confused with the times because I am still not sure whether he was his legs or on his stumps when he had the cricket bat

Legs ..

 

[wb180]

Legs ..

If you believe OP, then yes but that's not what the forensics people said.

 

[Viper]

No new evidence of any loud bangs other than the gunshots at 3:00 and cricket bat hitting the door at 3:17. Surely you will concede that is the case?

I think we've had this conversation before. Is it your contention that OP had a private 17 minutes screaming yelling crying session with himself before he took the initiative to call for help for Reeva?

 

[jassy writer]

But the State's entire case for premeditation rests on their assertion that Reeva was heard screaming before she died.

Turns out, she wasn't and couldn't have been heard screaming when the witnesses heard "a woman" screaming.

So ...whatever else there is to speculate about, the state's case for premeditation and intentionally killing Reeva is down the drain.

If you want to talk about culpable homicide as something that can be proved - then that's a different discussion and the state's still in it on that charge.

Not quite sure how you've arrived at this... of course she could have been heard screaming, and was heard, by multiple witnesses. Also, the more holes Gerrie Nel picks in OP's statement, and right now it's looking like mosquito netting, the less the judge is going to rely on his testimony.

 

[minor4th]

If you believe OP, then yes but that's not what the forensics people said.

You mean Vermuelen who said he hadn't tested the higher mark to see if it matched a cricket bat ..but then it turned out there was photo evidence of him doing exactly that, but somehohw he forgot or misplaced those photos when he was telling Van Staden which pictures to put in the album?

Those forensics people?

Ok ...

 

[Whiteorchids]

What were his dogs during his killing spree? He bought a pit-bull and bull terrier for protection. So where were they?

 

[minor4th]

Not quite sure how you've arrived at this... of course she could have been heard screaming, and was heard, by multiple witnesses. Also, the more holes Gerrie Nel picks in OP's statement, and right now it's looking like mosquito netting, the less the judge is going to rely on his testimony.

Um no ... the gunshots were at 3:00, and they killed Reeva.

The screaming was heard after that - which means it couldn't have been Reeva screaming. Which means that the screaming that was heard was OP or some unrelated non-Reeva person.

Doesn't matter what Nel does with Oscar's cross examination - there's no way around that evidence that completely refutes the witnesses' belief that they heard Reeva screaming. Without that there is absolutely no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, of premeditation.

 

[asanque]

Do you contend that having shot Reeva starting after 3:17, OP then remained "focused" and in just over a minute he had time to go to the bedroom and put on his legs... go to balcony and scream... grab cricket bat... go back to bathroom... bash door with bat (very very quietly)... drag Reeva's body out... and then start with the 3:19 phone call and all that followed after that?

I contend that OP shot Reeva just on 3:17.

OP knew he had shot Reeva and followed with the 3:19 call immediately afterwards.

 

[Rumpole]

If you believe OP, then yes but that's not what the forensics people said.

Even if you believe he was on his stumps wielding the bat... he had to take time out to put his legs on a some point. All the stuff which would have talen 5 minutes and then some would need to be done in the space of a minute and a half if the shots were at 3:17. It is simply physically impossible. When engaed in logical analysis, if you reach a point like that in any hypothesis... you abandon (or modify) the hypothesis. Given the shots were NOT at 3:17, they must have been at the time Stipps heard earlier set of bangs. Or maybe all the bangs were bat and other OP damage noises, and the shots were not herad by anyone? Maybe OP used the airgun silencer on his 9mm ?

 

[minor4th]

Do you contend that having shot Reeva starting after 3:17, OP then remained "focused" and in just over a minute he had time to go to the bedroom and put on his legs... go to balcony and scream... grab cricket bat... go back to bathroom... bash door with bat (very very quietly)... drag Reeva's body out... and then start with the 3:19 phone call and all that followed after that?

That is IMPOSSIBLE... and it didn't happen that way. OP shot the door at the earlier time of bangs (3:00 - 3:10) and then it took 5 minute (or more) to do all the stuff that was clearly done, irrespective of whose version.

I dont know why this is still an issue for some... especially Nel. He has shown signs of conceding the point already as he covers OP's reaction to "the intruder" I am sure Nel knows that the 3:17 time is nonsense... I think he will abandon his "supporters"... maybe people should get ahead of the play and let the silly "3:17 shots" notion go

Why is this so difficult to understand for so many people? I truly do not understand what the barrier is to understanding this.

 

[minor4th]

I contend that OP shot Reeva just on 3:17.

OP knew he had shot Reeva and followed with the 3:19 call immediately afterwards.

Then you must also contend that the Stipps were lying when they said they heard gunshots at 3:00 and when the state's experts said the gunshots happened before the cricket bat hit the door.

Is that what you believe?

 

[asanque]

Um no ... the gunshots were at 3:00, and they killed Reeva.

The screaming was heard after that - which means it couldn't have been Reeva screaming. Which means that the screaming that was heard was OP or some unrelated non-Reeva person.

Doesn't matter what Nel does with Oscar's cross examination - there's no way around that evidence that completely refutes the witnesses' belief that they heard Reeva screaming. Without that there is absolutely no evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, of premeditation.

So your contention is numerous impartial witnesses heard 'some other woman' screaming for help during that exact same time (or OP screaming like a woman for 15 minutes)?

Implausible.

Your entire case is built around the 3:00 a.m. gunshots being the fatal shots which is entirely inconsistent with all witnesses (excepting OP)