Trial Discussion Thread #23 - 14.04.11, Day 21

[Whiteorchids]

Originally Posted by Gryffindor
I've been stunned every time he's accused Oscar of lying. Outright. Improper.

By rights, Oscar could say the same to Nel! Haha! Saying "you're lying" repeatedly could be seen to sway the judge and subconsciously imprinting "fact and truth" in her mind, inaccurately.

Also, Roux should've been able to tell PT witnesses during cross that they're "lying". He never did, once.




Sorry this is such a late response. I am just catching up with today in court.

Yes he did say some like you are lying or you have to be lying on a number of occasions to one of the early witnesses but I cannot remember which one and I don't have the time to go through all of them again. We discussed on here how we thought it was bad to do this.

I don't like hearing Nel saying either "you are lying" or "you are a liar" to OP. It is a bit uncouth. There has to be a better way of implying the same. I think I heard him also use "you are not telling the truth" which I feel is far more preferable.

I have missed virtually all of todays court proceedings. Can anyone tell what was being discussed when Nel called OP a liar. I would like to watch what was being questioned at the time and witness how the judge responded.

Full video of today's trial.

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

 

[jay-jay]

But that's it val..you are not RS..I don't think there is one person on this forum that can anticipate how she should have/ would have reacted in that situation considering she had already been victim to a traumatic home invasion already kwim?

People do tend to follow certain behaviours though .. and just like Nel was saying that, if RS thought there were intruders in the house, then she would've hidden/crouched in a corner of the toilet cubicle instead of standing up behind the door, directly facing it .. the reason he says that is because people's behaviours can actually be fairly accurately predicted. They used these types of human behaviour patterns for things like crowd control, etc, and they can actually predict how people are going to react to certain situations.

 

[G.bng]

I have heard there are serious corruption issues in SA.

Well they say the same in the US and in the UK we have our own so... no surprise there then! Of course it exists however, do you really think police corruption is about putting innocent people in jail... what do they gain by that? I mean, if there is a serial killer, a child molester or rapist on the loose in the city, are you really saying that the police will be happy to set up any innocent mug for jail so the real serial killer, child molester or rapist, the ones killing, molesting kids and raping, can carry on clocking up more victims. That is absurd don't you agree?

If you agree, can you concede that police corruption is most often either about power or money? And in which case where would that tally that in with OP's case as he hasn't claimed any asked for a bribe to drop the case ?

 

[redheart]

"Reeva call the police even though i don't trust them or have any confidence in them"

I have wondered if OP includes that line because he's trying to cover all the bases - just in case Reeva started to actually dial the police whilst in the bathroom being terrorized by OP during an argument.

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

Agree with BBM .. but .. this is the problem with OP's version is that parts of it are now being taken as read/the truth when actually we only have OP's word for it. We only have OP's word for the 'fact' he asked Reeva to close the balcony doors, etc .. so we can't possibly know if they caused an argument or not .. and clearly, if he never asked her in the first place then they couldn't have been the source of any disagreement!

It's like the thing about the door being locked .. from the inside. That has been taken as truth almost from day one, but in reality, we only have OP's word for the 'fact' it was locked on the inside by Reeva whereas in reality it could've well have been locked by him from the outside .. we just don't know. But, the thing is is that so many people have made the point "why would Reeva lock herself in the toilet" when actually, we only have OP's word for the door having been locked from the inside .. we don't actually know for a fact that it was.

Jay-Jay

Love your work! I'm also concerned that any of OP's reports are taken as fact. On the stand, his "recollections" are very convenient in their patchiness and hole-plugging ability.

I also can't entertain hypothesising the reason for the argument (if there was one) that led to the shooting. Such hypotheses are based on assumptions about what might upset a reasonable or semi-reasonable person. For a person
with a propensity to DV, normal reason doesn't have to enter into it.

Maybe Reeva had the audacity to overcook the peas!!

 

[celticthyme]

If you really think there might be an intruder in your house ( who walked past you in your bedroom to get to the bathroom ) you would first yell and try to get a response, turn ON THE LIGHTS, call 911. ( and in his case, find the woman who was sleeping in your bed just minutes before.) Or you could just grab your gun and start shooting at someone in a locked area who is trying to keep you out.

 

[kaos]

I really do not understand what it is that people think the State have proved beyond all reasonable doubt, other than OP shot a watermelon a few years ago, an he sort of pled guilty to that when confronted.
Nel may have raised some doubts about OP's version (I personally do not think so, the only person for whom things in OP's version don't make sense is Nel... and he is being willfully obtuse IMO). Even if I concede that Nel has demonstrated some doubt about some details of OP's version, he needs to do FAR more than that. In fact he needs to do far more than totally discredit the Defense version of events. He needs to put forward a Prosecution version... and PROVE IT.. beyond all reasonable doubt. It is the defense, with a much lesser burden, who merely have to cast doubt on the State version.
However things are placed when Nel eventually stops this cross, Roux has the opportunity to counter whatever Nel proposed.

BTW.. dont you find it a bit "rich" that Nel spent hours parsing a text message looking for tiny imagined nuances that indicated verbal abuse, and yet he shows himself to be a nasty bully who uses verbal abuse constantly to attack and badger witnesses? Just sayin'

All the little nuances are all adding up to a bigger picture.

OP has claimed he lived in constant fear for his life citing previous family history, previous burglaries etc. Nel has proved otherwise.

He didn't report most of what he's claimed gave rise to this great fear.
Even though he lived within a gated community, if his fear was that great he'd have kept on top of his security system, broken window etc yet he's happy to leave his cars outside (even leaving one at a nightclub), happy to have his balcony doors left open and for ladders to be left around the property. Happy for other people to have access not only to his house, but to the ammo that's kept in a safe in his bedroom.

He was so terrified that intruders had broken in to come and kill him and Reeva yet walked towards this danger with a gun instead of making any attempt to get out of the room.

Nel's proved that he never walks away from danger and instead confronts it.

 

[jay-jay]

Does anyone have a clue why there was a really really long pause after Nel asked OP "Did you hear Reeva scream after the first shot"?. At first I thought I'd lost the feed because the pause went on and on, and then when I realised I hadn't lost the feed, I thought OP was about to crack and confess! No such joy, but as we couldn't see his reaction, I wondered if anyone here had noticed just how long that pause was. And I didn't hear any sobbing, so it wasn't that.

I did and I thought he was going to crack too .. I had my heart in my mouth at that point with the deathly silence, seriously thought he was going to confess!

 

[soozieqtips]

BTW.. dont you find it a bit "rich" that Nel spent hours parsing a text message looking for tiny imagined nuances that indicated verbal abuse, and yet he shows himself to be a nasty bully who uses verbal abuse constantly to attack and badger witnesses? Just sayin'

~snipped~

Funny. I don't recall you complaining about the tactics Roux used on the State witnesses. They were the witnesses who hadn't killed anyone that night. And at the heart of this all is a woman who was murdered in a toilet. Like it or not, Nel has to go through OP's account bit by bit (by whatever means) to test that version and see if it's credible... which it isn't. I doubt Reeva's parents think Nel is a bully, but rather that he's a lawyer doing the best possible job he can do in order to find out how their daughter was murdered.

 

[minor4th]

I think the most important thing for Oscar right now is to gain insight into his behavior and learn from his mistakes and bad behavior.

 

[minor4th]

I'm impressed with how well this judge is paying attention. I had worries early on, but she has redeemed herself and has shown that she is in control and is paying close attention.

 

[minor4th]

Can someone explain the bit about the alarm and switching it off and OP saying he made a mistake about what he said? Maybe I'm too tired to follow this!

 

[Val1]

The other thing I noticed about the LED light thing is that Nel said to him "when did you notice it" and OP said something about it being when he closed the curtains and turned back to the fans (what??!) .. but anyhow .. the bit I didn't get was .. and I know this myself because I don't like LED lights either and I find them really bright if the room is in darkness so I switch off at the plug point instead of having on standby .. but, you already know that this is something which annoys you when you are trying to sleep .. you sleep in that room every night and it isn't something which you just happen to notice on one particular night after having slept like that in that same room with the same LED light for months/years. How come OP only just noticed that LED on that particular night in question? That's just total nonsense.

So the led light bothered him but not the whole display on the unit? Not sure if it was a clock but was much bigger than the led light.

 

[Elemar]

I have read a few times now about a pair of woman's jeans found lying on the ground outside the house. Has this been used in evidence already or at the PT planning to use it in evidence?

 

[soozieqtips]

I think the most important thing for Oscar right now is to gain insight into his behavior and learn from his mistakes and bad behavior.

He needs specialist treatment!! He has no humility whatsoever, and still doesn't get that he's done anything particularly wrong apart from make a 'mistake'. His whole mindset needs changing. He needs to learn the world doesn't revolve around him, people aren't there just to serve his needs, he's not special, he's just a guy. No amount of time in prison is going to teach him humility and empathy. If anything, he'll fester inside and come out even more bitter and resentful because someone had the cheek to hold him to account and lock him up!

 

[jay-jay]

I think the most important thing for Oscar right now is to gain insight into his behavior and learn from his mistakes and bad behavior.

Well that's a bit too late for him now, the damage has been done .. but hopefully, being such a high profile case as this might just go towards teaching others that you cannot behave like this, and that there are some pretty serious consequences if you do .. and hopefully some lives may be saved as a result of it, because 2 women being killed a week (England & Wales .. and apparently the stats are even higher in SA) .. in DV situations is just not acceptable, not in this day and age. Some good has to come from this horrific incident, and would be a fitting tribute to Reeva if it did, and if it helped save lives.

 

[Patagonia]

If the alarm was activated then the dogs movement inside the house would have set it off. There is no security company board on the outside wall of his house, which is normal practice here in S.Africa, so he obviously has an alarm system, but it's not connected to any security company for patrol response if it is activated.

Now, this is also interesting to me. As I mentioned in my previous post, I live in a country with very little crime, certainly nothing even remotely comparable to SA, and yet I have an alarm, connected to the security company, at my office (with a security company's sticker on the outside doors). It's a total nuisance really, as the cleaning lady or something else similarly non-threatening setts it off, and than the security company immediately calls you on the phone (and once their response patrol even went commando on the poor carpet people, lol, that we've forgot to inform of the alarm), but what I'm trying to say - it's weird how this 'paranoid and scared' Oscar didn't have the alarm connected to the security company? And had other security issues, unusual for someone living in fear.

I have a feeling that he didn't live in fear at all. He had his gun with him all the time, and I somehow sense ('gotten to know him') that this gave him great confidence... He said himself that he was never brought up to be a coward, and considering everything else in his life and his personality, I don't see him as this fearful and scared person, at all...

 

[mister happy]

I really do not understand what it is that people think the State have proved beyond all reasonable doubt, other than OP shot a watermelon a few years ago, an he sort of pled guilty to that when confronted.
Nel may have raised some doubts about OP's version (I personally do not think so, the only person for whom things in OP's version don't make sense is Nel... and he is being willfully obtuse IMO). Even if I concede that Nel has demonstrated some doubt about some details of OP's version, he needs to do FAR more than that. In fact he needs to do far more than totally discredit the Defense version of events. He needs to put forward a Prosecution version... and PROVE IT.. beyond all reasonable doubt. It is the defense, with a much lesser burden, who merely have to cast doubt on the State version.
However things are placed when Nel eventually stops this cross, Roux has the opportunity to counter whatever Nel proposed.

BTW.. dont you find it a bit "rich" that Nel spent hours parsing a text message looking for tiny imagined nuances that indicated verbal abuse, and yet he shows himself to be a nasty bully who uses verbal abuse constantly to attack and badger witnesses? Just sayin'

BBM. I think Pistorius is guilty as hell, but you make a good point. I get a vague empty feeling that, for all of his huffing and badgering, Nel really isn't getting anywhere in his cross examination. He is trying to trip Pistorius up, but for the most part it just ain't working IMO.

 

[minor4th]

Well that's a bit too late for him now, the damage has been done .. but hopefully, being such a high profile case as this might just go towards teaching others that you cannot behave like this, and that there are some pretty serious consequences if you do .. and hopefully some lives may be saved as a result of it, because 2 women being killed a week (England & Wales .. and apparently the stats are even higher in SA) .. in DV situations is just not acceptable, not in this day and age. Some good has to come from this horrific incident, and would be a fitting tribute to Reeva if it did, and if it helped save lives.

Well, the damage has been done as far as Reeva is concerned but I don't think it's too late for Oscar to learn and contribute something positive about the situation. I don't think this is DV homicide so I don't think that is what he needs to learn about or gain insight.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Full video of today's trial.

http://www.wildabouttrial.com/one_off/oscar-pistorius-trial-archive/

Thanks, any idea what was being discussed? I will be able to forward the video and find the discussion. Usually it takes only a few minutes to do that. Otherwise I have to listen to the whole day.