Trial Discussion Thread #23 - 14.04.11, Day 21

[Viper]

Viper, I hear you...and I can't explain nor have nay excuse for the discrepancies about where the fan was, the length of cords, and the misconduct of the police. I'm not going to go back a year and check but you are most welcome to...after Hilton Botha testified at bail hearing and I heard what happened, I said on this very forum that I would not be surprised if OP gets off on a technicality..that heads were rolling at that very moment and Botha would be out of a job by the end of the week. Trues nuts, the next day, he was off the case on a unrelated murder charge that was subsequently dropped. But his conduct on the case will be used by the defence. Ultimately, he did fluck up.The only thing I find insane is that op was initially charged with premeditated murder when there was absolutely no proof or evidence that OP wanted to kill her. Considering that these cases are a dime a dozen in SA , ( the man who shot his preggy wife wasnt even reported on in the news until now..,how many other stories are there out there unreported)..what made this case so different? All eyes on Africa maybe??

That is a lot of words, but not really responsive to what we are discussing. Your original question, that I took the time and effort to reply to, was related to why you could not see why others could not find OPs story plausible. I take it that you still believe that OP's story is plausible, even with all the new testimony from OP about things being moved around the crime scene by the police, before any photos were taken. I also take it that you believe that OPs revised story is still plausible because Roux will prove that Warrant Officer Botha did all of those things while other police officers watched, or perhaps helped.

 

[james83]

"Reeva call the police even though i don't trust them or have any confidence in them"

 

[AlwaysShocked]

I am curious about public opinion on OP and if is guilty in SA. Or is his popularity still high?

I watch the trial on a South African site that has a chat board that runs next to the video of the trial. Most of the posters in the chat are from SA.

It seems to me that at first, right after it happened, people didn't know what to think. And apparently there was a lot of negative gossip about Reeva that had made the rounds - that she was a gold digger, did drugs, was a *advertiser censored*, etc. etc. It was suspected that ex-girlfriend Sam Taylor was the source of much of these stories. OP was definitely held up as a national hero and was considered to be contributing positively to the image of his country.

During the course of the trial as the evidence started to come out you could see those who had an open mind beginning to be convinced that something was very wrong with the picture that was emerging. Those early witnesses who heard screaming were very powerful.

As the days have gone on it seems more and more who were on the fence are now thinking him guilty. Then there are those who thought all along he was guilty. And there are those who still post of his innocence.

On this particular chat board (sabcdigitalnews) I would say that it currently stands at about 90% for guilty (of premediated murder) and 10% not guilty.

 

[weeeva]

So she wouldn't have slammed the loo door. She would have closed it gently and quietly.

But I believe she did slam the loo door. It's one of the bits of truth that OP has inadvertently let slip into his web of lies.

Is it possible that Reeva was already in the toilet cubicle when she heard OP calling out? If she was she would have had no reason to close the door gently.

 

[soozieqtips]

Does anyone have a clue why there was a really really long pause after Nel asked OP "Did you hear Reeva scream after the first shot"?. At first I thought I'd lost the feed because the pause went on and on, and then when I realised I hadn't lost the feed, I thought OP was about to crack and confess! No such joy, but as we couldn't see his reaction, I wondered if anyone here had noticed just how long that pause was. And I didn't hear any sobbing, so it wasn't that.

 

[Val1]

But that's it val..you are not RS..I don't think there is one person on this forum that can anticipate how she should have/ would have reacted in that situation considering she had already been victim to a traumatic home invasion already kwim?

I concede none of us know how she would have reacted with certainty, I doubt even her mother could do that, but how would a reasonable person have reacted to hearing the person they supposedly are in love with, screaming in fear for their life running towards them in what would be the only safe haven once trapped in that whole bedroom/bathroom area?

 

[DebinGA]

OP works that he whispered/softly told Reeva to phone the police line in to his evidence often. Could a possible reason for this be that what actually unfolded that night was that before Reeva's horrific fate, an argument erupted and Reeva for whatever reason ended up in the toilet cubicle with her phone. For all OP knows, she could very well have phoned the police for her own safety, after all she did say herself that OP scared her sometimes. So maybe OP brought that he told Reeva to call the police in to his initial statements/evidence in case investigators found that Reeva had indeed phoned them. This way he is covered and it would back up his version.

OP's fear that RS would/was calling police is the best reason I see of why he killed her in a moment of blind panic outside the locked door.

 

[minor4th]

Wow, minor! You have an impressive knowledge of South African law!

I suspect this is meant as sarcasm -

My knowledge of SA law is limited to what I have learned since this trial started. I have made a point of reading cases and articles about procedure and such, but how much can one learn in a couple of weeks?

My answer to the question about calling a witness a liar while he's testifying comes from my understanding (generally) of the function of a trier of fact (the judge in this case). I also listened to commentary from lawyers on Oscar Radio after the testimony today, and the lawyers also said this is the reason Nel was reprimanded about calling the witness a liar.

HTH

 

[Carol70]

That is a lot of words, but not really responsive to what we are discussing. Your original question, that I took the time and effort to reply to, was related to why you could not see why others could not find OPs story plausible. I take it that you still believe that OP's story is plausible, even with all the new testimony from OP about things being moved around the crime scene by the police, before any photos were taken. I also take it that you believe that OPs revised story is still plausible because Roux will prove that Warrant Officer Botha did all of those things while other police officers watched, or perhaps helped.

I think I've been nel'ed. I have no idea the point I was trying to make, clearly I thought it was important at the time as to why I typed up a long essay. (beer doesn't help haha) I will take a rain check on this and get back to you! Plse be kind, it's been a long eat-sleep OP week hehe

ETA: am I pulling an Oscar? Haha

 

[BritsKate]

Viper, I hear you...and I can't explain nor have nay excuse for the discrepancies about where the fan was, the length of cords, and the misconduct of the police. I'm not going to go back a year and check but you are most welcome to...after Hilton Botha testified at bail hearing and I heard what happened, I said on this very forum that I would not be surprised if OP gets off on a technicality..that heads were rolling at that very moment and Botha would be out of a job by the end of the week. Trues nuts, the next day, he was off the case on a unrelated murder charge that was subsequently dropped. But his conduct on the case will be used by the defence. Ultimately, he did fluck up.The only thing I find insane is that op was initially charged with premeditated murder when there was absolutely no proof or evidence that OP wanted to kill her. Considering that these cases are a dime a dozen in SA , ( the man who shot his preggy wife wasnt even reported on in the news until now..,how many other stories are there out there unreported)..what made this case so different? All eyes on Africa maybe??

Fame, fortune, and pretty people? I'm only half-joking. Across the world, certain crime victims have nonstop news coverage while others don't even warrant a blurb on Page 19. It's something anyone who follows these cases for any length of time resents and laments simultaneously. It isn't fair, never has been, and never will be.

As to why he was charged with premeditated murder when Mdunge wasn't (I assume that's the case you're referencing), I believe was the number of shots fired and the screams. It's enough to warrant the charge. Now, whether Nel can prove it BARD is another debate entirely.

It surprised me a lot but it makes sense - in South Africa each injury after the first can be argued towards premeditation. So him firing another 3 times is a problem for the defense. Add to that 5 witnesses hearing a woman screaming in the 12 minutes before he claims he fired (or some variation thereof).

JMO

 

[minor4th]

He is as dead as a limp piece of French toast. Everyone hates him lol. I told the husband earlier today, his best bet if he manages to escape jail time is a dark corner in one of his uncle Arnold's offices...pushing paper.

If he wants to restore his image at all or have any future in public life here's what I think would be best for him -

Get some kind of jail sentence but not so lengthy that he's an old man when he comes out.

Write a book while he's in jail whereby he takes full responsibility and gives insight into the dangers of reckless behavior and gun ownership, the value of human life and the responsibility and duty to act rationally so as to preserve life, etc

When he gets out of jail, make a point of publicly and often speaking of the above subjects, show humility, acknowledge his bad behavior and the horrific consequences to so many people and become an educator and spokesman against such reckless behavior and disregard for human life.

Then he might be welcomed back into society and accepted again.

 

[Val1]

The number of shots don't seem to tell us that much. If we accept that the 4 shots fired is excessive, which I think most of us are in agreement with, then we need to be able to ascertain what result would occur if he shot in rage, as opposed to him shooting in blind panic. I think the 4 shots could easily apply to either situation.

I respectfully disagree. In a panic and in fear for your life, I would expect a person to have fired until they no longer could, whereas if in anger, you only need to fire until the anger has been satisfied, by stopping the source of your anger to continue to fire it.

 

[shane13]

I think I've been nel'ed. I have no idea the point I was trying to make, clearly I thought it was important at the time as to why I typed up a long essay. (beer doesn't help haha) I will take a rain check on this and get back to you! Plse be kind, it's been a long eat-sleep OP week hehe

ETA: am I pulling an Oscar? Haha

Obviously your post was an "accident."

Clearly each time your fingers hovered over a key it accidentally triggered that letter's key to be struck somehow.

 

[Rumpole]

I really do not understand what it is that people think the State have proved beyond all reasonable doubt, other than OP shot a watermelon a few years ago, an he sort of pled guilty to that when confronted.
Nel may have raised some doubts about OP's version (I personally do not think so, the only person for whom things in OP's version don't make sense is Nel... and he is being willfully obtuse IMO). Even if I concede that Nel has demonstrated some doubt about some details of OP's version, he needs to do FAR more than that. In fact he needs to do far more than totally discredit the Defense version of events. He needs to put forward a Prosecution version... and PROVE IT.. beyond all reasonable doubt. It is the defense, with a much lesser burden, who merely have to cast doubt on the State version.
However things are placed when Nel eventually stops this cross, Roux has the opportunity to counter whatever Nel proposed.

BTW.. dont you find it a bit "rich" that Nel spent hours parsing a text message looking for tiny imagined nuances that indicated verbal abuse, and yet he shows himself to be a nasty bully who uses verbal abuse constantly to attack and badger witnesses? Just sayin'

 

[Patagonia]

Me too and everyone else I know says the same. Protect first, ask questions later. I sleep with a machete next to my bed, I would not hesitate to use it and hopefully, never have to.

You sleep with a machete next to your bed? I can see you are from SA, and (following this case) I came to understand how dangerous your country is, and the constant state of fear people apparently have to live in. And I really would like to take this into the consideration, as I do believe it is important to have in mind when thinking about this case.

But the degree of this constant fear, and consequent paranoia, is still a little had for me to comprehend. Is it really that dangerous and scary, in day to day life?

It's a bit difficult for me to estimate how much of it is just Oscar's exaggerating in order to build his defense, and how much of it is really present in ordinary people's lives, so to speak? Because I live in a (small) country with very little crime, certainly nothing comparable with having to sleep with a machete next to your bed! Where I live (Croatia; Patagonia is just a ''nickname''), something like that is totally unimaginable. We live basically without any fear of that kind whatsoever. Fear for one's safety is not at all present in a daily life. Our cars don't get hijacked, nor do our homes get robbed, on a daily bases. Especially the homes we live in (that are not empty). And there is practically no fear of that at all. And when there is a murder, then it will be all over the front pages of every newspaper in the country.
As far as the guns go, it is extremely difficult (almost impossible) to get the license for it over here, if you are a civilian. (You can get it only in special circumstances.) So there is really no way someone could claim he was living in fear of the intruders and use it as a defense in a case like this.


On another note, I was wondering if you ever saw, or sensed, or anything similar to that - prior to this event - anything to suggest Oscar has this ''darker side'' to him? And I don't mean something very drastic, just that he wasn't all this perfect hero guy? Because, prior to this event, I've never even heard of him, but then when this came up in the news, I watched some of his older interviews and he sure did come across as a very charming and likable guy. How shocking and 'out of character' this seemed to you, when you heard of it? If you don't mind me asking

 

[BabaJ]

I knew someone would think I'm lazy. :anguish:

No probs, it is just a personal thing.

What's your opinion on OP's change of routine regarding the side of the bed he slept on. True, false, or undecided?

Changing sides is possible, I think people do it for numerous reasons, however, I do not remember ever changing sides with my husband (I guess he really likes his side

Also, it makes sense to roll over if the other side is empty and get off the bed on that side (like you do , I am just wondering - she had her phone in the loo, where was the phone before she left the bed? If it was on her side, she would have to reach the phone (how far?) and then roll over etc. - more movement and bigger chance he would hear or see her IMOO

 

[Val1]

Another thing I'm surprised he didn't do is push the security system's panic button.

They come real fast when you push that [which I've done by mistake making my bed].

Didn't you hear, the security guards and apparently the whole police force, perhaps even his own lawyers are all working against him. OP has definite trust issues... but he then expects us to believe that not only does his father who he hasn't had any contact with for around 5 yrs has access to not only his home but also the combination for one of his safes, but that he told RS to call the very people he doesn't trust to save them, and not just once.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Originally Posted by Gryffindor
I've been stunned every time he's accused Oscar of lying. Outright. Improper.

By rights, Oscar could say the same to Nel! Haha! Saying "you're lying" repeatedly could be seen to sway the judge and subconsciously imprinting "fact and truth" in her mind, inaccurately.

Also, Roux should've been able to tell PT witnesses during cross that they're "lying". He never did, once.


Originally Posted by Interested Bystander
Oh but he did.

But did he say, "you're lying" or "you're a liar" because I honestly do not remember him say it outright like that, though I could be wrong. I just don't remember him saying that. Insinuating they're lying and outright saying it are two different things.

Sorry this is such a late response. I am just catching up with today in court.

Yes he did say some like you are lying or you have to be lying on a number of occasions to one of the early witnesses but I cannot remember which one and I don't have the time to go through all of them again. We discussed on here how we thought it was bad to do this.

I don't like hearing Nel saying either "you are lying" or "you are a liar" to OP. It is a bit uncouth. There has to be a better way of implying the same. I think I heard him also use "you are not telling the truth" which I feel is far more preferable.

I have missed virtually all of todays court proceedings. Can anyone tell what was being discussed when Nel called OP a liar. I would like to watch what was being questioned at the time and witness how the judge responded.

 

[Mystymiss]

OP's fear that RS would/was calling police is the best reason I see of why he killed her in a moment of blind panic outside the locked door.

Yup! it only took 1miss and 3 hits that stopped the screaming lady...

 

[Whiteorchids]

True. But I cannot lose sight of the extreme recklessness of his irresponsible behavior. He hears a slight noise, and instantly assumes it is an intruder? And never bothers to spend the 1 or 2 seconds necessary to confirm Reeva's whereabouts?

And when asked why he thought it could be an intruder, since he had an alarm and lived in gated community, he tells us that he never checked to see if his alarm system was working, and never checked to put the ladders away, etc. Again, irresponsible behavior on his own part, which led to her death. If he was so 'paranoid' then why was he so lax in his security?

Alarm systems come equipped with a silent and non silent panic button however you set it up. This is why I don't believe his story. He would have pressed it. He had time to get his gun and put legs on. He would have had time to press the panic button. It would have scared off an intruder. They are very loud and if monitored the police would had been notified.