Trial Discussion Thread #23 - 14.04.11, Day 21

[lisasalinger]

OP never said he screamed "there's an intruder."

He said he yelled "get out of my house."

Yes, thank you for the correction on that. Was just pointing out that he started shouting in the passageway.

I agree with many here the "get out of my house" was likely yelled at Reeva and he is now accounting for those words.

 

[steveml]

Now that is where I differ from you Steve as I always get out of the side that I sleep on , that just comes natural to me and IMO as regards distance it's as broad as it's long.

I knew someone would think I'm lazy. :anguish:

No probs, it is just a personal thing.

What's your opinion on OP's change of routine regarding the side of the bed he slept on. True, false, or undecided?

 

[Emz73]

OMG! You are right. WHY did he turn off the alarm?????????????????????

Isn't the entire purpose of the alarm to bring help?

Maybe he turned it off so Reeva couldn't activate it????

 

[fox1lady]

There is no probable evidence to point that he had any reason to kill her maliciously that night. Accidentally, yes. But on purpose? Her, RS, specifically? No.

And that is why I am supporting that part of the case as OP is trying to 'put it to the world' what happened that night.

I agree. I do think he went out with the intention of shooting the intruder though (if there was one), his mistake as he often calls it was in shooting and killing Reeva.

I can't understand the lack of conversation between them both when they woke up though - that is just very very odd.

I say no to premeditated murder but yes to murder or culpable homicide!

 

[Patagonia]

Exactly, if I had been RS, if nothing else I would have opened the door to let him in to safety after having heard him screaming all the way down the hallway towards me, obviously in fear for his life(assuming you believe OP's version).

This is interesting. In the beginning, I didn't give much thought into this because I reasoned that it wasn't really implausible to assume Reeva would have kept quiet if/when she heard Oscar screaming to the intruder to get out of the house. (And for her to lock the door at that point. - Although Oscar hasn't testified to hearing the door being locked, only closed shut, right? When did she lock the door then??) Because I reasoned that it would have been possible for her to be so scared at that point, because she would have assumed there were indeed intruders somewhere in the house, and wouldn't necessarily realize that Oscar was mistaking her for the intruders - so she would have perhaps just kept quiet, and not reply anything to him (in that scenario).

But, after today's testimony, and after thinking about it a bit more, I also came to doubt if Reeva would have kept quiet (in this Oscar's version), if she had heard Oscar approaching her. Because, if she had heard him approaching the cubicle, then she would have presumed that he is, at that point, running away from the danger/intruders. And she would, in that case, also assume that Oscar is, at that point, closer to her than the intruders, and that he is actually running/escaping/retreating towards her? And would, in that case - in all probability - want to help him (to get further away from them)? If not by immediately opening the cubicle door for him to enter, than at least by shouting something back to him, or asking him something? For example, whether to unlock the door for him, or not?! Or something to that effect? (I'm just trying to imagine myself in that situation...)

Because I can imagine her wanting to keep quiet (in order to keep her location hidden), if she had just heard Oscar screaming to the intruders somewhere else, or further away in the house. But if she heard him going towards her (and screaming to the intruders to leave the house), then I don't see her slamming the door shut in front of him at that point! (As he testified today.)

But even if I accept his version to be the truth, then why hasn't she called the police, immediately after hearing him scream to her to do that? Why isn't there any record of that on her mobile phone? Ok, maybe she didn't have the time (like Oscar wants us to believe.) But, there are simply too many loose ends in this Oscar's story. Far too many for his version to be plausible.

 

[kittychi]

Oscar's right. The State have changed their case and proposals within it numerous times. Is the State actually tailoring its case as per evidence, witnesses and statements???

BBM: I would hope so!

Back in February of 2013 they charged him with premeditated murder and they have not backed off on that charge. If their investigation showed there was not premeditation then I would hope they would change the charge to CH.

I think it is very telling that after all witness statements and all evidence was in, the Prosecution stuck with their original premeditation charge.

 

[Carol70]

I am curious about public opinion on OP and if is guilty in SA. Or is his popularity still high?

He is as dead as a limp piece of French toast. Everyone hates him lol. I told the husband earlier today, his best bet if he manages to escape jail time is a dark corner in one of his uncle Arnold's offices...pushing paper.

 

[shane13]

Hmmm... another strange fact:

I'm listening to the back and forth testimony about the alarm.

It seems to me if he wanted immediate help that night, he would have opened the bedroom door and run out and tripped the alarm on purpose. That would insure immediate help coming.

So why would he turn off the alarm before he left the bedroom? That just delays help coming.

This too is well part of what I mean when I say that "this one runs deep."

Remember the excuse Oscar uses that maybe an intruder entered from the bathroom window is that he had his workers' ladders outside the bathroom on the ground.

But the last time someone was burgled in that community was in 2011. And it was the home of his very same contractor-friend Christo Menelao!
And I believe it was the very same ladders that were used because Menelao left his window open and left his ladders outside there. It was a security guard who did the crime.

But a year and a half later, knowing all this from his friend and contractor, he "chooses" to leave the same ladder outside his bathroom? And did we learn today he set his alarm to off?

This one runs deep.

 

[katydid23]

Feynman, don't do that, I think you know exactly what I meant. You have been one of the most reasonable voices of madness here in the last 12 months..don't slip please.

I totally understand what you are saying about feeling the need to protect against home invasions. We live an hour north of Los Angeles, and home invasions seem to be on the rise in the city. My son bought me a Glock for Mother's Day several yrs ago. :wink:

But that does not change the fact that one needs to protect one's family and roomies first and foremost, when going on the offense. You do not shoot blindly through the door of another room without checking everyone's whereabouts. No excuse for that, whatsoever, imo. :moo:

 

[Val1]

The jeans / duvet is so telling! Yes the duvet was ripped from the bed and the jeans were later thrown on / near the duvet. But consider this, there was blood on the outside and the inside of the duvet. So who was bleeding drops of blood before the duvet was ripped from the bed?

And so now OP admits that Reeva was awake and talking to him before he went commando in to the bathroom and killed? I need time to think. :facepalm:

Was there not a pic wayyyy back showing OP with a slightly injured nose on the day in question? Iirc this was after OP had gone and washed his hands and face but doesn't "remember" washing his chest and before he was whisked away by Brigadier Gerard Labuschagne. Will see if I can find it. Visions of someone getting hit in the nose and subsequently freaking out keep popping into my mind... :/

 

[fox1lady]

Is there any indication that Reeva had indeed called or attempted to call the police?

 

[Viper]

I don't dispute and I hope that OP is looking at, at least a culpable homicide conviction...and that is exactly what Nel has managed to prove so far. OP has admitted and doesn't deny that he is responsible for the death of Reeva. In my mind, OP has already stated that he wasn't acting in a reasonable capacity hence the reason he didn't initially wait for a response from Reeva, and went blindly shooting into a confined space.

I know I keep going on and on about this but I just can't see how anyone can't see that it's a plausible scenario. Slaan my Dood.

BIB. Based on yesterday's testimony even OP doesn't see it as a plausible scenario. He himself now says he could not have run out on to the balcony with the fan blocking his way, as it is shown in the crime scene photos. He says that he does not remember how the duvet wound up on the floor. He says the curtains are opened too far / too wide to fit his version of running outside. He says the doors are opened too far to fit his version.

OP himself according to his own version is now going to present 100's of photos to prove that the police grossly contaminated the crime scene (per Riux's statements to a witness) by moving all of that stuff to make OP look guilty before they took the first sets of photos. Do you realize how insane that is? So if you can believe his newly revealed story, including all of this new stuff he is putting forth, then...

 

[Val1]

I totally understand what you are saying about feeling the need to protect against home invasions. We live an hour north of Los Angeles, and home invasions seem to be on the rise in the city. My son bought me a Glock for Mother's Day several yrs ago. :wink:

But that does not change the fact that one needs to protect one's family and roomies first and foremost, when going on the offense. You do not shoot blindly through the door of another room without checking everyone's whereabouts. No excuse for that, whatsoever, imo. :moo:

My kids will often show up late at night and just burst through the door as they unlock it and come rushing in, often only to "borrow" some groceries or use the toilet on their way home, but the opportunity for making a "mistake" is certainly there, especially with a head injured husband who I almost frighten to death on a daily basis by merely walking into the same room because he has tunnel vision when watching tv, petting the cat, eating his snacks.... therefore, I won't and will never allow a gun in my home.

 

[james83]

Still finding it very very odd that Reeva would bother to open a window in the dark at 3am in a room she's going to be in for around a minute, again it just doesn't ring true.

 

[weeeva]

No.

This is what Reeva knew in this regard.
1. Just had a heated argument with OP for an hour.
2. Escalated to something very serious, forcing her to flee.
3. No one else in bathroom!
Obviously she put on light to see her way into the loo. No one else in the bathroom.
4. Heard OP come after her. (He prob. was screaming at her.)
5. Recognized his voice threatening her.
6. Much worse: re bashing in a door panel that I won't get into now.

You could be right, or....... you could be wrong.

 

[katydid23]

I don't dispute and I hope that OP is looking at, at least a culpable homicide conviction...and that is exactly what Nel has managed to prove so far. OP has admitted and doesn't deny that he is responsible for the death of Reeva. In my mind, OP has already stated that he wasn't acting in a reasonable capacity hence the reason he didn't initially wait for a response from Reeva, and went blindly shooting into a confined space.

I know I keep going on and on about this but I just can't see how anyone can't see that it's a plausible scenario. Slaan my Dood.

BBM

And I guess I can't see how anyone can see it as a plausible scenario. :wink:

First, if protecting Reeva was his number one primary goal, wouldn't he take 1 second and verify her whereabouts? And wait for her response, and maybe help her escape to safety? And put on one's legs at once.

Perhaps hit the panic button on the alarm system? And at the very least, stay with her hidden behind the locked bedroom doors, gun in hand, shooting if anyone approaches?

What he did was so risky and dangerous and stupid. To go on his vulnerable stumps down a long dark hallway, not knowing if there were 3 or 4 armed intruders waiting...stupid move.

I just cannot get past his version of events. It makes no sense to me at all.

 

[ShadyLady]

Still listening, but I have heard enough to think that when two people are arguing (I believe witness) and one goes and hides and the other one goes and gets a gun and shoots....that can only be premeditation in my book (there is enough evidence for me to think OP's version is a big old lie).... Especially 4 shots through a closed door. And then takes a long time by my perception to call medical.

 

[Patagonia]

As OP was armed facing the toilet door where he thought an intruder was hiding, wouldn't it have been reasonable for him to tell the intruder he had a gun and would shoot if he came out of the toilet. That's not been raised by Nel as yet. If he was able to yell and scream, he was capable of threatening the intruder, but didn't. He didn't give the intruder any opportunity to say, don't shoot me, I will stay here until the police arrive or whatever. He had the intruder cornered and OP had the upper hand in the situation. He was the aggressor, getting his gun and heading towards the intruder yelling and screaming.

Something is very very wrong with his version any way I look at it.

I didn't have time to think, MiLady! I was overcome with fear. All I knew was that I had to put as much distance as possible between Reeva and the wicked witch of Oz. But I never meant to shoot anyone, MiLady.

Pass me the green bucket...

 

[whiterum]

I just watched the testimony where Nel was asking OP whether or not he heard Reeva scream after the first shot, OP said she didn't scream. Then they went further and OP said his ears were ringing so he could not hear her screaming. And then Nel pounced, saying,"Exactly! You could not hear her screaming!"

This is key because whether or not OP heard her screaming that does not mean that she was not. And the witnesses that heard her screaming during the shooting and then heard her screams go silent after the shooting stopped are right in what they heard.

Love love love Mr. Nel!

Exactly, and it took a while before the penny dropped with OP who was arguing the point that even in his own IMO concocted version what the witnesses heard may well have been Reeva screaming during the shots since OP could not possibly tell one way or the other.


One smart cookie is Nel always right on the ball !!

 

[james83]

I don't dispute and I hope that OP is looking at, at least a culpable homicide conviction...and that is exactly what Nel has managed to prove so far. OP has admitted and doesn't deny that he is responsible for the death of Reeva. In my mind, OP has already stated that he wasn't acting in a reasonable capacity hence the reason he didn't initially wait for a response from Reeva, and went blindly shooting into a confined space.

I know I keep going on and on about this but I just can't see how anyone can't see that it's a plausible scenario. Slaan my Dood.

IMO Oscar has destroyed the myth that he wasn't acting reasonably with the change in his story where he say's he whispered for Reeva to get down and call the police, that doesn't fit into this mad sense of dread and terror at all.