Trial Discussion Thread #23 - 14.04.11, Day 21

[Carol70]

I totally understand what you are saying about feeling the need to protect against home invasions. We live an hour north of Los Angeles, and home invasions seem to be on the rise in the city. My son bought me a Glock for Mother's Day several yrs ago. :wink:

But that does not change the fact that one needs to protect one's family and roomies first and foremost, when going on the offense. You do not shoot blindly through the door of another room without checking everyone's whereabouts. No excuse for that, whatsoever, imo. :moo:

And here I am ranting and raving about crime in SA...my kid actually buys me flowers for Mother's Day hehe

On a serious note...I know that Katy, I have never condoned OP's behavior..I think we are all in agreement that what he did was kill an innocent person..if only he had waited a few secs, waited for a response, did this or did that, we all would not be here losing sleep although ashamedly, I have to say...I would never have had the opportunity to meet some incredible people and become an arm chair juror. Does that make me bad? :blushing:

 

[shane13]

You could be right, or....... you could be wrong.

This is true,and unless Oscar confesses, we will never know for certain.

And I doubt he would ever confess, even if guilty as hell.

So we are left with the standards of jurisprudence.

And that is "guilt beyond a reasonable doubt."

And his BH affidavit was improbable enough. But it had to be altered in plea before trial. And now it changes nearly by the minute under cross from Nel.

Has not "beyond a reasonable doubt" long since made its appearance here?

 

[weeeva]

Yeah, you just can't predict what someone would do.

Do I really think it happened the way he said? No.

But, I can't prove it.

The only possibility I've seen so far that might work towards guilt--I think she was dressed in street clothes, and the contents of her stomach showing she ate at 1am not 7pm.

That would suggest they never went to bed that night and the fight started downstairs with her fleeing to the bedroom.

But it's not enough for me, yet.

I don't know if her clothing was pyjamas or street clothes. Pyjamas these days can consist of vest and shorts. I think if Reeva had been in street clothes the prosecution would have pounced on this evidence and yet it has never been mentioned.

 

[BritsKate]

OP was an avid gun enthusiast so it is no surprise that he held the gun steady and had a tight target area. I think the fan blocking the balcony and Reeva being dressed in her day clothes are unanswerable questions if OP’s version of events were the truth and nothing but the truth.

The screaming, whether it was Reeva, OP or a combination of the two is not supported by evidence either way IMO it can only be known that there was screaming.

That said, my read of the judge is that OP will walk with a slap on the wrist and a hug, maybe some mandated anxiety management classes. I hope that I am wrong.

I have to disagree. She strikes me as cautious and fair. We don't know much about her - she's refused to give media a curriculum vitae and seems to shun the public spotlight. I think it says much about her strength of character that she is an older black female judge in post-apartheid South Africa. I can only imagine the challenges and hurdles she's faced in her career. One thing that is known is she has a track record for sentencing those convicted of crimes against women harshly. I would be much more concerned were this a jury trial.

Throw on top of that an intense international media glare. I don't believe for a moment it will influence her decision making but I do think she'll be that much more cautious. Like many societies, there are already allegations of chequebook justice that plague the judiciary in South Africa. And that's leaving racial politics to the side - where ideologically they should be but in actuality rarely are.

JMO and FWIW

 

[dodie20]

I missed the witness testimony. Did witnesses say the part of the bathroom where the tub was had a light on?

Are you thinking Reeva did not take her phone into the bathroom? What was her last use of it?

Reeva either was hiding there from him or just using the bathroom. Is there a third possibility?

If she was hiding from him, why stand in front of the door? Worst place to stand if she knew he had a gun.

Like somebody said earlier, just because OP says something, doesn't make it fact. He's the only witness left living, so we have to be careful with his version. About that phone...OP is very careful to distance himself from it. According to him, he didn't know the pass code, (so if there was anything in it that might possibly cause an argument, well it doesn't pertain to him, because he couldn't possibly have seen anything). He said he told her to call the police, therefore subtly putting her phone in her possession. But, if he wanted the police so bad, why did he turn off the alarm? And if he told her to call the police, why didn't she? Even if he didn't tell her to call the police, why didn't she? And then he volunteered the information that when retrieving her purse for a worker, he didn't go through it. Phones do start a lot of arguments! Anyway, do we have any proof that she actually did have her phone? moo

 

[Patagonia]

She still would have needed to get her phone which was on the right side of the bed (right next to Oscar).

How do we know where her iphone was prior to her (supposedly) getting up from the bed and heading to the bathroom? I think I missed that part, does anybody know for sure her phone was on the OP's side of the bed?

Because the only reason, I can think of, why she would take her phone with her to the bathroom is if she wanted to use it as a flashlight, so that she wouldn't have to turn the lights on. But why not turn the lights on - if OP was already awake?! (Getting the fans.) It would be a different thing if she hadn't just spoken to him, and if he was sound asleep... In that case I could see why she would use her phone and avoid turning the lights on in order not to wake him up.

It of course, in itself, proves nothing, but there are SO many questions like this...

 

[jay-jay]

I knew someone would think I'm lazy. :anguish:

No probs, it is just a personal thing.

What's your opinion on OP's change of routine regarding the side of the bed he slept on. True, false, or undecided?

I'm confused about the 'side of the bed slept on/shoulder injury' thing .. is he saying that he found it more comfortable to sleep on his injured shoulder (the right shoulder)? If that is the case, then yes, if he wanted to cuddle up with Reeva then the left hand/balcony side of the bed would be the right side to sleep on .. but, I had always got the impression he claimed to have changed the side of the bed so as to avoid sleeping on his right arm .. which in that case, he would be turned away from Reeva, if he slept on the left hand/balcony side so why would he want to do that? If he wanted to avoid sleeping on his right shoulder and snuggle up with Reeva, then he would've slept on the right/non balcony side of the bed.

Then again, it doesn't seem to matter that much now .. all the changing sides of the bed thing .. because he now says that he went to sleep with his head on her lap! (how the heck did he thing that Reeva was going to be able to sleep like that, with him in that position?) <<-- no, this is probably something they may have done during the daytime, early evening, and which he has planted in his story because he knows it's something they have truthfully done .. but just not on that particular night at 10pm in the evening! It's just another example of mixing truth with fiction in order to make the whole thing sound more realistic when actually, it doesn't.

ETA: I know that all of the above never actually happened that night and that it's all just part of the OP's story to put Reeva in a part of the bed where he wouldn't have noticed if she was there or not while fetching his gun from under the left hand side of it (<<-- and that bit isn't even true, either!)

 

[G.bng]

Roux did the same? I don't recall that?

He did iirc.

 

[jay-jay]

Exactly, if I had been RS, if nothing else I would have opened the door to let him in to safety after having heard him screaming all the way down the hallway towards me, obviously in fear for his life(assuming you believe OP's version).

Good point!

 

[katydid23]

I have to disagree. She strikes me as cautious and fair. We don't know much about her - she's refused to give media a curriculum vitae and seems to shun the public spotlight. I think it says much about her strength of character that she is an older black female judge in post-apartheid South Africa. I can only imagine the challenges and hurdles she's faced in her career. One thing that is known is she has a track record for sentencing those convicted of crimes against women harshly. I would be much more concerned were this a jury trial.

Throw on top of that an intense international media glare. I don't believe for a moment it will influence her decision making but I do think she'll be that much more cautious. Like many societies, there are already allegations of chequebook justice that plague the judiciary in South Africa. And that's leaving racial politics to the side - where ideologically they should be but in actuality rarely are.

JMO and FWIW

I have a good feeling about this judge so far. She seems very respectful of the law and of all the players and she seems very very aware at all times of the testimony. I think she will do her utmost and that is all we can hope for.

 

[shane13]

He is as dead as a limp piece of French toast. Everyone hates him lol. I told the husband earlier today, his best bet if he manages to escape jail time is a dark corner in one of his uncle Arnold's offices...pushing paper.

Well I hought you said he likely will get little jail time--a point upon which we agree.

And always realize... that no matter what happens and no matter where he is...he will always have his fans.

Especially these two:

 

[Viper]

Like somebody said earlier, just because OP says something, doesn't make it fact. He's the only witness left living, so we have to be careful with his version. About that phone...OP is very careful to distance himself from it. According to him, he didn't know the pass code, (so if there was anything in it that might possibly cause an argument, well it doesn't pertain to him, because he couldn't possibly have seen anything). He said he told her to call the police, therefore subtly putting her phone in her possession. But, if he wanted the police so bad, why did he turn off the alarm? And if he told her to call the police, why didn't she? Even if he didn't tell her to call the police, why didn't she? And then he volunteered the information that when retrieving her purse for a worker, he didn't go through it. Phones do start a lot of arguments! Anyway, do we have any proof that she actually did have her phone? moo

BIB. Absolutely not. IIRC her communications, social media postings, and text messaging all stopped about 10 o'clock. Weird for a young social butterfly like Reeva, very weird.

 

[Carol70]

BIB. Based on yesterday's testimony even OP doesn't see it as a plausible scenario. He himself now says he could not have run out on to the balcony with the fan blocking his way, as it is shown in the crime scene photos. He says that he does not remember how the duvet wound up on the floor. He says the curtains are opened too far / too wide to fit his version of running outside. He says the doors are opened too far to fit his version.

OP himself according to his own version is now going to present 100's of photos to prove that the police grossly contaminated the crime scene (per Riux's statements to a witness) by moving all of that stuff to make OP look guilty before they took the first sets of photos. Do you realize how insane that is? So if you can believe his newly revealed story, including all of this new stuff he is putting forth, then...

Viper, I hear you...and I can't explain nor have nay excuse for the discrepancies about where the fan was, the length of cords, and the misconduct of the police. I'm not going to go back a year and check but you are most welcome to...after Hilton Botha testified at bail hearing and I heard what happened, I said on this very forum that I would not be surprised if OP gets off on a technicality..that heads were rolling at that very moment and Botha would be out of a job by the end of the week. Trues nuts, the next day, he was off the case on a unrelated murder charge that was subsequently dropped. But his conduct on the case will be used by the defence. Ultimately, he did fluck up.The only thing I find insane is that op was initially charged with premeditated murder when there was absolutely no proof or evidence that OP wanted to kill her. Considering that these cases are a dime a dozen in SA , ( the man who shot his preggy wife wasnt even reported on in the news until now..,how many other stories are there out there unreported)..what made this case so different? All eyes on Africa maybe??

 

[Val1]

I didn't get the alarm conversation either.

OP didn't seem to say too much about it and his explanations were quite vague.
I was a bit surprised that they hadn't obtained more info. about the alarm. When Nel said 'I haven't seen your alarm' or words to that effect, I thought it was going to all get a bit muddy.
The PT would have probably made more progress if they'd inspected the alarm system more thoroughly before that line of questioning IMO.

It ended up with two guys both not really understanding what each other was talking about.

I think the point was to confirm that even in OP's mind, there was no reason to doubt whether the security system was working and on at the time he shot RS, even though OP iirc had implied in earlier testimony or statements that it might not have been(because at some time, apparently 3-4 years previously when the house had been painted, one of the sensors had been taken off the wall).

 

[Val1]

Two glaring trouble spots in OP's current testimony under Nels' CE:

1. Screaming post-shooting
Does one usually scream after one finishes shooting at a suspected intruder? I am reminded of George Zimmerman who claimed HE screamed after shooting Trayvon Martin to death.

Aside from claiming to have screamed after finishing up shooting the person one perceives as a lethal threat in such cases when a scream has been documented and one must claim it as one's own to show one was in fear of one's life, I have not encountered in real life (or film) the shoot-to-kill the threat with post-"having done so" screaming.

The person who fires a gun at a disarmed person, receiving no fire in return or further threat, does not need to scream. True, in OP"s case, he can not see whether or not his threat is armed. However, after shooting four times, OP hears no further movement, receives no verbal threat.

I can think of only two conditions to occasion screaming post-shooting: if one realized one shot the wrong person or if one's gun accidentally went off, then screaming in horror at one's mistake makes sense.

Also, if one started one's scream out of fear of the impending threat against oneself and then reflexively continued to scream before one could ascertain that one had vanquished the threat, screaming makes sense.

None of the above would apply to that moment in which OP claims he screamed. It seems that he, once again, has tailored his account to fit his story. Screams were heard, most likely Reeva's, so he contends, conveniently, that he screamed after shooting through the bathroom door four times, paving the way for the judge to consider that witnesses hearing a woman's screams heard a man's, not Reeva's then, but his.

2. What triggered (sorry) shooting.
He claims to have begun shooting once he was at the bathroom door because of hearing sounds that indicated to him the imagined intruder was going to attack him. Movement noises, noises that portended the imminent bursting forth of a lethally dangerous person triggered his shooting.

I don't find this explanation for shooting (as opposed to just arming himself) a convincing rationale. First, what sort of noise could Reeva have made that would sound like a person about to bust out of the stall?

Second, even if such a noise or any evidence of such an intention had been manifest, how can OP claim inherent in it is a lethal threat?

It is one thing to shoot a person advancing at you with obvious lethal intent, but another to claim the sound of a movement from behind a door is proof of such a threat.

And even if we chalk OP's reaction up to an interpretive leap based on noise or on some visual sign of motion to escape from hiding, after the first shot, what did he hear or see to confirm the need for three more? In reality, what could Reeva have been doing to cause a reasonable person to believe an imagined intruder was about to burst forth and injure or kill him (thereby rendering him no longer able to protect Reeva, meaning she would be tied up etc.)? And since he is still armed, he has a second chance to fire still more shots.

The link below contains the report of his testimony in regard to these two points, post-shooting screaming and rationale to begin shooting.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...eva-Steenkamp-accused-tailoring-evidence.html

bbm - What really stuck out for me on this point, is how could he have heard "wood moving" at that point, didn't he also claim that he had started screaming at the "intruder" to "get out of my house" as he rounded the wall into the bathroom and started shooting?

 

[Elemar]

OP works that he whispered/softly told Reeva to phone the police line in to his evidence often. Could a possible reason for this be that what actually unfolded that night was that before Reeva's horrific fate, an argument erupted and Reeva for whatever reason ended up in the toilet cubicle with her phone. For all OP knows, she could very well have phoned the police for her own safety, after all she did say herself that OP scared her sometimes. So maybe OP brought that he told Reeva to call the police in to his initial statements/evidence in case investigators found that Reeva had indeed phoned them. This way he is covered and it would back up his version.

 

[moomin]

IMO Oscar has destroyed the myth that he wasn't acting reasonably with the change in his story where he say's he whispered for Reeva to get down and call the police, that doesn't fit into this mad sense of dread and terror at all.

Exactly , when questioned further he said he screamed at Reeva the very same words !!!!

 

[Carol70]

Exactly, if I had been RS, if nothing else I would have opened the door to let him in to safety after having heard him screaming all the way down the hallway towards me, obviously in fear for his life(assuming you believe OP's version).

But that's it val..you are not RS..I don't think there is one person on this forum that can anticipate how she should have/ would have reacted in that situation considering she had already been victim to a traumatic home invasion already kwim?

 

[shane13]

bbm - What really stuck out for me on this point, is how could he have heard "wood moving" at that point, didn't he also claim that he had started screaming at the "intruder" to "get out of my house" as he rounded the wall into the bathroom and started shooting?

Well he has to have something like this in his affidavit. If believed, it could obviate both PM and CH charges in theory.

It's his attempt at "a reasonable man's fears."

It's his claim that he thought he heard that "they" were about to come out and harm him "and Reeva".

 

[Carol70]

Well I hought you said he likely will get little jail time--a point upon which we agree.

And always realize... that no matter what happens and no matter where he is...he will always have his fans.

Especially these two:

Forgive me..I lol'ed!!