Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 22

[asanque]

The point is--he didn't see or hear her leave. That's very possible.

Here's another exercise for you.

Stand 20 m away from a toilet and have someone flush it.

I'd suggest that sound would be a lot louder than hearing a window open.

 

[jassy writer]

Did he do that as part of a plan to set up an alibi? Bit of a stretch

IF you have to twist and spin to even try and jam facts into a narrative... it's kinda not likely to be true

STILL no time.

Still impossible.

And the 3:17 is just one of MANY hard facts that the STATE presented... that they have to fit their version.

The 3.17 time is the time that the call finally connected to security. Not the time of the second shots. As I understand it, it was at close to 3:17 that Stipp called security and at 3:19 that OP called Stander.

It may have taken Stipp longer to locate his cellphone and find security's number... it may not have been saved on his phone whereas Stander's number was clearly saved on OP's, who had his phone to hand as well, so his call would have been much quicker.

Therefore there may have been as much as five minutes between the shooting and OP's first phone call... more than enough time!

 

[Apollo]

If OP spoke in a low tone, why would he not have also expected some sort of response or movement from an awake Reeva (i.e. to look for her phone to call the police)?

There was plenty of time for a response as he still had to get his gun.

If he told her to call the police, I would expect at a minimum she would have replied, "Why?" Was she expected to phone the police and say:

"Hello Police, Oscar told me to call you"

 

[jassy writer]

She was in there long enough to empty her bladder.

Also, she was already awake when he woke up. Maybe she had just returned from the bathroom.

Molly, sorry, but she was not in there long enough to empty her bladder.

Firstly if she had already returned from the bathroom, why would she go back?

Secondly I listened to OP's testimony - he heard the window sliding back just after he moved the fans. Reeva could not have got up, gone to the bathroom and finished in the time it took him to move two fans a few feet away from where they were (on his testimony, which I do not believe).

Therefore, the open window would have had to be Reeva on her way to the bathroom. OP immediately grabbed his gun, proceeded down the passage, then started screaming.

Only then was the door slammed. While he was screaming.

Sitting on the toilet, it has been demonstrated, she could not have slammed the door as it opens outwards.

Therefore she was not yet on the toilet. And by the time she was shot, she would not have had a chance to go, on OP's testimony. Bladder was not voided after death... this would have been picked up and mentioned in the bail hearing.

 

[kaos]

He put his socks on too Jassy.

 

[molly333]

Molly, sorry, but she was not in there long enough to empty her bladder.

Firstly if she had already returned from the bathroom, why would she go back?

Secondly I listened to OP's testimony - he heard the window sliding back just after he moved the fans. Reeva could not have got up, gone to the bathroom and finished in the time it took him to move two fans a few feet away from where they were (on his testimony, which I do not believe).

Therefore, the open window would have had to be Reeva on her way to the bathroom. OP immediately grabbed his gun, proceeded down the passage, then started screaming.

Only then was the door slammed. While he was screaming.

Sitting on the toilet, it has been demonstrated, she could not have slammed the door as it opens outwards.

Therefore she was not yet on the toilet. And by the time she was shot, she would not have had a chance to go, on OP's testimony. Bladder was not voided after death... this would have been picked up and mentioned in the bail hearing.

I wouldn't be willing to stake my life that she didn't have time to empty her bladder. Therefore, I wouldn't stake his life on it either.

And, the empty bladder actually works in his favor. It gives her a reason for being there.

 

[jassy writer]

Really? Go and listen to his testimony and tell me exactly when she would have had time to empty her bladder.

I agree the empty bladder works in his favour. It is just a big pity there was no time for her to do it.

 

[molly333]

Really? Go and listen to his testimony and tell me exactly when she would have had time to empty her bladder.

I agree the empty bladder works in his favour. It is just a big pity there was no time for her to do it.

When do you think she emptied her bladder?

 

[Harmony 2]

Really? Go and listen to his testimony and tell me exactly when she would have had time to empty her bladder.

I agree the empty bladder works in his favour. It is just a big pity there was no time for her to do it.

OP stated that Reeva was in the bathroom before they went to bed and she called him to come and brush his teeth. Is it possible she emptied her bladder at that time?

 

[asanque]

OP stated that Reeva was in the bathroom before they went to bed and she called him to come and brush his teeth. Is it possible she emptied her bladder at that time?

No.

The pathologist stated she had emptied her bladder within the previous hour or so before her death.

They went to bed at 10 p.m. (according to OP)

 

[asanque]

Really? Go and listen to his testimony and tell me exactly when she would have had time to empty her bladder.

I agree the empty bladder works in his favour. It is just a big pity there was no time for her to do it.

My prediction is that at some point today, Nels *will* ask:
'Mr. Pistorius, did you hear a toilet flush?'

This is a key question.

If he says 'no' because of the fans.

Nels will say then how come you could hear the window slide open.

He won't won't be able to answer with anything else.

Edit: He will also establish that it would be impossible on OP's version of events for Reeva to have gone to the toilet in the timeframe provided.

He may also raise the issue of washing hands.

The empty bladder and toilet is a key issue.

Second Edit: Although if I was Nels, I would have asked yesterday. "Mr. Pistorius, if you were truly looking for Reeva after you 'shot the intruder', why didn't you turn on the lights first?' ; and

"Mr Pistorius, if you were really frightened about the intruder, why wouldn't you have tried to open the toilet door after the shots?" (establishing the locked door earlier)

Third Edit: I would have also asked earlier "Where does Reeva normally keep her mobile"?

Answer: Most likely, I don't know but next to her.

That way he could have established movement on the right hand side of the bed that he should have noticed.

 

[04009margaret]

WTH? This isn't the official stenographer is it? Goodness me, that's quite dangerous, she alone could send a man down (or get him off) for her inaccuracies

No, it's a court stenographer that Sky has hired. She transcribes as she watches the trial

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I'm sorry, minor4th, but I don't see the correlation. I don't think this was about him ending their relationship or her ending it either. I don't see any evidence of that on either side, really (although, the evidence never paints the full portrait).

Instead, I believe something went down that day that angered OP. Something not connected to RS at all, but something she was trying to comfort him over and that is why she chose to go back over to his place.

I obviously don't know either of these young people, but when thinking about it, I wish so hard that he'd snapped at her in a text and told her not to come back. She'd be alive and none of this would have happened...at least, not to her. I don't wish it on anyone else, but I stand behind my opinion that this really had very little if not absolutely nothing to do with Reeva Steenkamp.

And that's what I mean by sinister. Some people are born violent and it isn't their environment, it's innate. I think OP is the perfect example of someone born with a propensity for violence. He's channeled it mostly through sports, but it's been brimming at the surface for awhile. (I base this on all the other accounts of his short temper coupled with him wielding a deadly weapon like a mere cigarette.)

So, again. Nothing to do with Reeva. A madman comes in many forms and can be very hard to spot - and I would think this especially true in SA where, from what I've read, is a great deal of violence.

This was bound to happen with OP. Now it has. And my gut tells me we will never know or understand why.

Only now I'm thinking: OP's texted messages to Reeva (both more than 1700) were always friendly or at least decently in the verbiage. He shall verbally can also be very rude. Certainly OP had/has always great fear, his second side could be uncovered by an sms once.
Normal would be, to scold at the girlfriend in a sms too, not only verbally.

Therefore I could imagine, the drama on 13.2. has to do with cell/call/sms.

 

[weeeva]

I don't agree that your point has been proven over and over again.

BBM: He says he can't remember stuff and then comes up with something. Something that was different from the previous hour or the previous day! Why would he change his story in multiple places? Why does he add things now, a year later when his memory isn't as fresh as it would have been last year?

Nel is looking for consistency and he isn't finding it. That is why he is asking the same questions over and over. Oscar has not been consistent, or do you think he has been consistent?

Really, all he has to do is tell the truth. It shouldn't take that long or be that continually upsetting.

ETA: What Oscar is claiming he isn't sure of is why his story changed!


At his bail application, Pistorius claimed: "I saw the bathroom door was closed and I thought someone could be in there."

"There's not a single word of that door closing in your bail application. Why?" Nel asked him.

“I’m not sure, my lady,” Pistorius replied.

“It’s not in your plea explanation either, why is that?”

“I’m not sure, my lady.”

“If you said it to [your own defence] counsel? Why did they not put it in?”

Again, the reply was the same.

“I’m not sure, my lady.”

Believe it or not, I do agree with you.

 

[kaos]

I know he's not allowed to speak to his DT while he's on the stand but does that mean he can't take advice from anybody who is a lawyer?

 

[Freya1977]

I've been trying to find an aerial photo which shows OP's house and also points out which witnesses house is which. Can anyone direct me to one?

 

[weeeva]

If I had assumed that was your opinion, I would not have asked the question.

I am on the fence, and can't get off. I wish I could one way or an other.

 

[Gavel Rash]

Has it been determined,as fact, the denim on the floor were Reevas, other than Oscars version that they are? I may be wrong. But they look suspiciously like men's and as Oscar liked to store his legs in the trousers, if he was in a super hurry trying to get his legs on and pulled them through, his socks would have pulled off and reason for him to add he had to put his socks on as well. This fits with him having no legs in his acts of intimidation and gun fire, then trot off to get his legs phones etc. He also had little blood on the base of his socks in photos yet we have been told they had been taken in the garage?

As we also still have no explanation to 'other' pants. Not neatly out the window.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

If shots after 3:17... then there is FAR to much stuff for OP to do before making calls starting 3:19.

At some point he has to get bat, put on legs, bash door (quietly so nobody hears) etc etc etc...

It is simply IMPOSSIBLE. Not even an issue.

Legs already on, bat already in the bathroom, door already bashed or now bashed with towel tied around ..... etc. etc.?????

 

[weeeva]

BIB Roux did step in today. He talked for quite a while. I was amazed because he was asking the judge to make Mr. Nel stop questioning Mr. Pistorius on a particular matter, the slamming of the door and basically that whole sequence of events! I laughed so hard! Sure it is alright for Mr. Roux to at least make the attempt to get Judge Masipa to tell Mr. Nel to stop questioning Pistorius about those thing, but it was just so pathetic!!!

Jeez, you laughed hard. I wish I could laugh hard. I hardly slept a wink all night, I was so uptight.