Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 22

[molly333]

Forgive me....for interrupting... But what the heck does the topic of false confessions have to do with THIS case??????


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[Panda]

I don't know and I'm not even sure that he's "changing" it. Was his plea vague enough to cover both scenarios?

I don't know either. Was just wondering generally if you can do that in SA - change your plea mid way.

 

[Rumpole]

Its not IMPOSSIBLE.

He was kneeling and running around by his own testimony so could have already had his legs on.

He also could have had the bat already out.

The door would have already been weakened by the gunshots.

Did he do that as part of a plan to set up an alibi? Bit of a stretch

IF you have to twist and spin to even try and jam facts into a narrative... it's kinda not likely to be true

STILL no time.

Still impossible.

And the 3:17 is just one of MANY hard facts that the STATE presented... that they have to fit their version.

 

[BritsKate]

Does anyone know what happens under SA law if he does change his plea mid stream?

He's not changing his plea so much as he is his defence. He's plead not guilty under putative self-defence but in that, there has to be some intent to do something to defend yourself. By him repeatedly saying that was never his intent to shoot, he's contradicting putative self-defence altogether. Involuntary is a rare defence and usually requires provocation under SA law, something like temporary insanity or an epileptic fit.

It's 5am and I'm ready to drop but here's an article that describes it a lot better than my tired brain can.

But his insistence that he formed no intent to shoot may be digging him into a bigger hole, according to legal experts. They say in doing so, he appears to have abandoned his defense that he shot in self-defense. Instead he seems to be claiming that the action of shooting was involuntary and accidental.
For the self-defense argument to apply under South African law, Pistorius would have intended to shoot the intruder, and his task in court would have been to show his fear for his life was reasonable.
“Is it your defense that you fired at the perceived attacker?” Nel asked and Pistorius said no. He insisted it would have been an accident, even if he had shot an intruder.
“It was all an accident?” Nel asked. “That’s correct,” Pistorius responded.
“Your defense has now changed from putative self-defense to involuntary action,” Nel told him, adding that the athlete could have only one defense, not two.


http://www.latimes.com/world/worldn...efense-20140414,0,6171933.story#ixzz2yvRBF92q

 

[asanque]

Did he do that as part of a plan to set up an alibi? Bit of a stretch

IF you have to twist and spin to even try and jam facts into a narrative... it's kinda not likely to be true

STILL no time.

Still impossible.

Why would he use that as an alibi?

Check the theory thread.

There was plenty of time as per my theory.

He had his legs on and Reeva had her normal clothes on because they were in the middle of a fight.

What is impossible is OP's explanation of why Reeva went to the toilet with an empty bladder.

See my earlier post below:
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #25 - 14.04.14, Day 24

I'd like to see an OP believer rationalise how Reeva had an empty bladder

Edit: Theory
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Theory Thread - What happened at Pistorius' house on the night of Feb. 13, 2013?

 

[molly333]

Sheesh? :giggle:

Sorry, but you're getting so ruffled. I'm not sure why, but I find it amusing that I'm becoming Nel to you just by defending his job skills.

Fine, I'll be Nel. Slow down, I'm not done yet.

If he could see with the blue led light, then why couldn't he see that Reeva wasn't there when he whispered into her ear that was at least a foot or more from him? Or are you now proposing that Reeva had exceptionally large ears or bionic hearing?

<modsnip>

A man's voice carries, even when he's hissing something. It doesn't have to carry very far from Oscar's side of the bed to Reeva's side. Hissed, low tone, softly--it's all the same for our purposes and hardly a detail that anyone in that position is likely to remember. And, it is totally irrelevant to this case.

 

[Feynman]

At 1:15:37 in the trial video, OP said he collected his firearm from under his bed, he took the holster off...

Yet the holster was found against the wall on the bedside table.

One would expect to find the holster on the floor if OP had retrieved his gun from the floor.

It's pitch black, he feels his way to the gun/holster, grabs the thing, pulls the gun out, flings the holster away, ...

 

[jassy writer]

Nice theory, too bad it's wrong.

I personally found somebody I loved who committed suicide about a month before Reeva was killed. It wasn't pretty.

I wish my memories were a complete blur. They're not. They're vivid and detailed, and they are in my thoughts every day.

For what it's worth, I fumbled for my cell phone and dialed 911 in the first 5 seconds of finding the body. I wouldn't hang up the phone with the 911 operator until the ambulance arrived.

I remember vividly the paramedic who got there first, the detectives, the people from the ME's office. Nothing is a blur. In fact, it's probably the strongest memory I have in my life.

My emotions when I think of that day are very similar to Reeva's mother. I have no idea what Pistorius is doing going into uncontrollable hysterics a over a year after her death. He never showed that much emotion about her when she was alive. Why now when she's dead?

Great post. I am sure that the police and courts, with their experience, will agree!

 

[asanque]

He never said he whispered into her ear. <modsnip>

A man's voice carries, even when he's hissing something. It doesn't have to carry very far from Oscar's side of the bed to Reeva's side. Hissed, low tone, softly--it's all the same for our purposes and hardly a detail that anyone in that position is likely to remember. And, it is totally irrelevant to this case.

If OP spoke in a low tone, why would he not have also expected some sort of response or movement from an awake Reeva (i.e. to look for her phone to call the police)?

There was plenty of time for a response as he still had to get his gun.

 

[molly333]

If OP spoke in a low tone, why would he not have also expected some sort of response or movement from an awake Reeva (i.e. to look for her phone to call the police)?

There was plenty of time for a response as he still had to get his gun.

He had no expectations of Reeva. He was focused on the entrance to the hall and the burglars he was expecting to burst through it at any moment.

They had breached the security of his bedroom.

Believe me, if Nel had any real evidence he wouldn't be spending an hour on whispers versus low tones.

PS It was after he got his gun and about to proceed into the hallway that he whispered/lowtoned/ softtoned his instruction to Reeva.

 

[asanque]

He had no expectations of Reeva. He was focused on the entrance to the hall and the burglars he was expecting to burst through it at any moment.

They had breached the security of his bedroom.

Believe me, if Nel had any real evidence he wouldn't be spending an hour on whispers versus low tones.

He probably spent about 10 minutes on whispers vs low tones.

This in a cross-examination spanning multiple days.

I don't think you can simply brush off a non-response and non-movement by Reeva as simply 'Oscar' concentrating elsewhere.

It just doesn't make reasonable sense.

I'd also like to see one OP supporter come up with a working theory on the 'empty bladder'.

 

[molly333]

He probably spent about 10 minutes on whispers vs low tones.

This in a cross-examination spanning multiple days.

I don't think you can simply brush off a non-response and non-movement by Reeva as simply 'Oscar' concentrating elsewhere.

It just doesn't make reasonable sense.

I'd also like to see one OP supporter come up with a working theory on the 'empty bladder'.

She was in there long enough to empty her bladder.

Also, she was already awake when he woke up. Maybe she had just returned from the bathroom.

 

[minor4th]

Have you ever heard a loud whisper?

I heard a couple during yesterday's testimony ...loud enough for the mic to pick up

 

[Panda]

He probably spent about 10 minutes on whispers vs low tones.

This in a cross-examination spanning multiple days.

I don't think you can simply brush off a non-response and non-movement by Reeva as simply 'Oscar' concentrating elsewhere.

It just doesn't make reasonable sense.

I'd also like to see one OP supporter come up with a working theory on the 'empty bladder'.

I thought she emptied her bladder after death?

 

[asanque]

She was in there long enough to empty her bladder.

Also, she was already awake when he woke up. Maybe she had just returned from the bathroom.

So during what period of time would she have had time to be in there long enough to empty her bladder?

There was literally only minutes between Oscar closing the curtains (to make it pitch black enough to not see her) and hearing the window shut.

So she had to get her phone, roll off the left side of the bed, make it to the toilet guided by just her mobile, presumably leave the toilet door open (otherwise it would make a sound), urinate, flush (and have OP not hear it), get up, wash her hands and then close the window.

Your second theory makes no sense as she would not need to wake up and go to the toilet a second time if she already had an empty bladder.

 

[asanque]

I thought she emptied her bladder after death?

There is no evidence that she did.

 

[jassy writer]

OK, let's look at timeline one: Fifteen minutes between shooting and breaking door down.

Bang, bang, Oscar fires his gun.
Immediately, presciently, thinks it is Reeva who has been shot.
Rushes back to bedroom, brushes hand over bed, fumbles under bed, brushes hand over curtain, opens door, goes onto balcony and shouts "Help, help, help." All the while still holding a cocked gun.
Rushes back into bathroom, puts gun down, tries to force door with shoulder, rushes back to bedroom, puts on legs, grabs bat. (Putting on legs in court took him 20 seconds. We will add another 20 as he explained that having still not put on the light, he was fumbling around for his socks.)
We're at what? Three, four minutes, max? (He is, after all, an athlete!)
That leaves ten minutes unaccounted for.

Version two (my version).

OP and Reeva have been arguing earlier in the evening and that escalates just after 3 am into a serious fight - perhaps it died down for a while and she waited until she thought he was asleep in order to leave and he catches her? At any rate, there are banging noises, perhaps doors are slammed or he smacks the bedroom door or the metal panel with the bat. At any rate, there are noises and screams loud enough to wake the neighbours. Reeva screams for help, Oscar mocks her by doing the same.

Oscar loses his rag, screams at her to get the F out of his house. Reeva yells at him she's going to call the police and escapes to the toilet with her cellphone. OP follows her with the gun and before he can think, in a blind rage, he shoots once. More terrified screaming follows and instinctively, following the sound, he shoots again three times.

Then silence... he immediately realises what he has done; after the shooting his temper has vanished and he realises the awful consequences.
"Reeva?" he says softly, coming up to the bathroom door. "****, goddamnit, how dare you die on me, oh, hell, you couldn't have been in the way of my gun, could you?"
Puts his gun down outside the door. Probably already starting to cry now. Realises it's locked. Tries for a few seconds to force it.
Rushes back to the bedroom, puts his legs on (20 seconds).
The bat is at hand; he uses it to break down the door. It doesn't take long.
Remember that by this time, at least two couples who heard the gunshots are busy phoning security, not still listening out for any more banging noises. Also, he may have used the bat more as a battering ram, which is why the marks on the door looked surprisingly low. (this would also have caused less noise). There are no rules to say you have to use a cricket bat as if you are hitting a cricket ball! You will use it in the most effective way you can think of to force a door or loosen a panel.
The door breaks, he unlocks it, he immediately is filled with horror and the need to do damage control.
The phone call to Stander follows just a few seconds later.
Total time: three to four minutes, max.

 

[molly333]

So during what period of time would she have had time to be in there long enough to empty her bladder?

There was literally only minutes between Oscar closing the curtains (to make it pitch black enough to not see her) and hearing the window shut.

So she had to get her phone, roll off the left side of the bed, make it to the toilet guided by just her mobile, presumably leave the toilet door open (otherwise it would make a sound), urinate, flush (and have OP not hear it), get up, and then close the window.

Your second theory makes no sense as she would not need to wake up and go to the toilet a second time if she already had an empty bladder.

Yes, she had enough time if she left for the bathroom off his side of the bed while he was fooling with the fans.

 

[asanque]

Yes, she had enough time if she left for the bathroom off his side of the bed while he was fooling with the fans.

So your contention is that she initially left the toilet door open (as otherwise OP heard it), flushed (OP didnt' hear it) and then opened the window before washing her hands (which OP would have heard)?

Edit: I believe he also moved the fans in before closing the curtain, giving him even less time.

Second Edit: You will find a lot of the cross today on this issue

 

[molly333]

So your contention is that she initially left the toilet door open (as otherwise OP heard it), flushed (OP didnt' hear it) and then opened the window before washing her hands (which OP would have heard)?

Edit: I believe he also moved the fans in before closing the curtain, giving him even less time.

The point is--he didn't see or hear her leave. That's very possible.