Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

[DebinGA]

Oh, no. Not just your opinion, mine too. I actually believe he's convinced himself that all of it was an accident, just one big accident.

That's not unusual thinking in the case of rage-fueled murders.

IMO OP believes RS brought it on herself by provoking him. Even now he says, "If she had come out or spoken, I would not have shot."

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Ah, cheers. I need to watch this (perhaps holding the door handle with the left hand?). BIB, interesting position. Body language 101 - hugging oneself is generally considered to be a self-comforting, defensive (mentally) position. It's not really a pose one would strike while walking/exiting a door. The pose likely indicates Reeva was in a stationary position, perhaps talking to OP.

If she had her arm across her stomach and was facing the door then it could be that she was holding the door handle with her right hand so she could turn the key with the left .
That would indicate she had just gone in there and just locked the door or just about to go out .
Or if frightened that she was holding the handle because she thought someone might attempt to pull it open .
I also think it is quite possible that she was doing exactly what Nel had said and was talking to OP but I am not sure Nel has proved that scenario yet . Hopefully he might add more strength to his hypothesis during summing up.
I do not think for a second she was expecting to be shot or had any idea he even had a gun aimed.
I am also kind of confused why the prosecution wanted it on record about Reeva knocking the magazine rack when their ballistic guy said the same as the defence witness today .
Any ideas on that anyone ?
TIA

 

[TorisMom003]

BIB - You'd think we could all agree that, wouldn't you? But no. I've seen one poster regularly present information as facts... 'facts' which always happen to support OP. This is supposed to be a victim-friendly site! OP was unhinged, unpredictable, angry, self obsessed, self absorbed, selfish, controlling, manipulative and deceitful. He was an accident waiting to happen, and if he escapes jail for some reason, God help any woman that gets involved with him and his temper.

I wonder how the parents of the new girlfriend feel about him? After hearing all of his testimony will they now perhaps try to talk her into dumping him? I also wonder if his family really feel safe around him. Perhaps the guard outside of his bedroom door at Uncle Arnolds is more for his Uncle's protection than for OP's.

MOO

 

[Viper]

BIB: Sorry Viper but that is not exactly the case. The other day with all the discussions on time of death, arterial spurts, rigor, breathing, etc. I thought to look it up and discovered some curious facts.

Depending on whether Reeva's brain-stem, (the part which controls involuntary movements such as breathing), was still functioning, Reeva could have breathed after she would have medically tested as brain-dead, (this concurs with Saayman's evidence that the head shot would have been "almost instantly fatal"), because a wound to the top of the head would be unlikely to injure the brain-stem which is attached to the brain underneath.

From how I understand "brain dead" and "brain-stem dead", and those interested should probably look it up for themselves, Reeva's brain-stem most likely stopped working due to a lack of oxygen (hypoxia) and most likely due to a blockage from aspiration of blood, vomit or whatever and not from the head injury, so even if brain dead, Reeva could have still breathed after the head shot (Dr Saayman testified to this) until the brain-stem stopped working.

Again from my understanding, Reeva's brain-stem must still have been working when OP got her downstairs and started to clear her airways, otherwise how to explain her "jaw-clenching" (an involuntary action typical of brain trauma victims and not rigor as some thought which takes some 2hrs to start), Dr Stipp describes that had OP's fingers caught between her teeth when he arrived and which he helped OP to release... unless the jaw-clenching happened upstairs and OP carried Reeva downstairs with his fingers clenched between her teeth which seems highly unlikely.

And even once Reeva was brain as well as brain-stem dead, her heart could have still carried on beating for a time, (the heart it appears comes with its own "electrical" supply), which would explain the arterial spurt found on the ground floor sofa falling from the landing above as OP passed near the void carrying Reeva downstairs (PT's spatter expert testified to this), as well as any arterial spurting on stairs or in the hall if there were other spurts found on these of which I am unsure.

Here links to two explanations on "jaw-clenching" that I used for my research as well as google searches and Wikipedia entries, e.g. brain, brain-stem, brain dead, Brain-stem dead, difference between brain dead & brain-stem dead, etc., etc.:

http://www.nursingassistanteducation.com/site/courses/eng/nae-thbi-eng.php
(scroll to section "KINDS OF HEAD INJURIES" and sub sections "Contusions and lacerations" and "Acute subdural hematoma, both listing "jaw-clenching" as a complication with the second sub section being, imo, the most relative here as it appears to fit with the description of Reeva's top of the head injury:


And:

http://medicineemergency.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/special-considerations.html
(scroll down to the section called "Jaw-clenching" which notes in respect of these spasms:

I am using my mobile phone to chat with you so it would be difficult to give you a complex answer. But one is not really needed if you apply common sense reasoning to the issue. I believe both the DT and the State's pathologists agree that Reeva died moments after being shot in the head. I did not hear all of Saayman's testimony but I do recal him saying that the key tissues (perhaps the brain stem) was severed at the "base of skull." Cutting that ends it all, we are talking about clinically dead, not brain dead, at that point because the brain cannot communicate with the body to get it to pump blood through the heart or to breath. That is clinically dead.

In addition, if you consider Reeva's wounds: 2 through her upper arm severing the humerus and artery, two through her head severing key tissues at the base of skull, and 1 in her hip that shattered her pelvis. If she were only brain dead and her lungs were breathing and her heart was beating there would have been enough blood loss from all of those injuries and wounds to completely cover the WC floor within a minutes time. But there wasn't. There was only a small pool of blood at her hip that would represent the minimal bleeding from her hip and from her arm, which for all intensive purposes was amputated by that bullet.

 

[DebinGA]

Yes, clearly an obvious opportunity for Nel to use the actual evidence to discredit OP's testimony but for whatever reason he didn't. I'm still surprised by that.

Nel probably knew OP would claim watching *advertiser censored* together was something he and Reeva enjoyed. There's nothing OP wouldn't say to save himself.

 

[Interested Bystander]

IIRC an American firm did an animated reenactment. Don't know re forensics.

Here you go:-

"I can confirm that a team of forensic investigators from America will be working with the defence team," spokesperson Anneliese Burgess said.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Pistorius-flies-in-US-forensic-experts-20131001

 

[Really?]

RS's card was simple and sweet. Adding a smiley face made it lighthearted too imo. I don't think it's proof that she considered OP the love of her life on that day, but that she sincerely cared for him. I think it's obvious OP wasn't following RS on Twitter, or he'd have known she expected some loving overtures from him that day. Despite OP knowing she was cooking dinner at home for them that evening, he didn't arrive with anything for her - even flowers.

BBM

sad when its put that way. It wouldn't take much effort to at least do that.

adding to this is that he went upstairs after arriving and showered and watched *advertiser censored*....or watched *advertiser censored* and then showered>we don't know.......

 

[shane13]

Wow, Shane. I’ve been watching and reading here in SA about the killing of Reeva since the shooting. I have lurked at these WS threads since last February, so I know your awesome work on this case. I’ve been enthralled by your analysis that told people such things as the physics of gunshots and echoes, or early on about that homeopathic remedy testis whatever.

You’ve stuck your neck out about Carl, or Oldwage or someone at the crime scene taking that 5th phone and that Pros, and judges have not even ordered any investigation. And that 16 days is long enough to send that phone to places that could have changed things. You’ve implied its records should not be allowed as evidence. Your perseverance is as amazing as your logic. You deserve an award for investigative journalism!

I wish you were here in SA. Then again you probably wouldn’t last long. Unlike in the USA where “conspiracy” is considered a dirty word, we know better here. We’ve had heads of the police, even the president, charged with or convicted of crimes and conspiracy.

With this post, you’ve done it again, Shane! Trish should get you on her podcast show! You actually know this case backwards and forwards as well as the physics, the logic, and related health issues.

You are an “eerbare man” (a virtuous man) as we call it here in Afrikaans.

I only wish YOU had a blog or something. Thanks for explaining so much, so thoroughly. Please keep at it.

Thank you kindly Mme B. It is very much appreciated.

I do not have a blog on this matter, but I will let you know something later via PM, as I have to get some more sleep now.

And I guess, like Oscar I may always have a couple of fans in SA.

 

[G.bng]

Well made points.

At the moment I have OP down for the gun related charges, and have not yet been convinced about the intention to kill Reeva. You're correct, evidence is crucial and if it has to be circumstantial then an accusing story with many twists and turns can be just as improbable a story as any other.

You don't have to be an apologist, sympathizer, supporter or any other name, you can simply make your own mind up regarding the charges based on the evidence and information you've seen.

Whatever the outcome, the winner needs to be justice. That applies to Reeva and her family, and the accused in receiving the correct sentence for the crime that has been committed.

It's an opinion at the end of the day. These opinions will still remain after the trial is over.

I think what may be more important is whether you, or I, well the judge, are convinced OP shot knowing a person was in the toilet, that he intended to shoot, and that if he didn't in his mind intend to kill the person, should he have foreseen that consequence as a possibility ? Along with other legal conundrums such as whether a reasonable double amputee should have gone towards the danger, shouted a warning, fired a warning shot etc. etc. etc.

 

[minor4th]

Indeed.

Hey Minor!

Can I ask for your valued thoughts on today please?

Fell asleep before Nel even started asking questions, so I'm just now listening to part 1

 

[fox1lady]

Yes.

All that badgering and bullying and nastiness... and for what?

The State version of events is disproved from the outset my their own witness and expert testimony

I don't know about you but if someone shot my daughter dead I would want the person responsible to be badgered bullied by any means necessary to get at the truth whatever it is. How can you not want that too?

 

[BritsKate]

IMO OP believes RS brought it on herself by provoking him. Even now he says, "If she had come out or spoken, I would not have shot."

That's one of few things he said I believed. Of course, I believe he had knowledge she was in there and was infuriated when she wouldn't come out.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

 

[aa9511]

May I help you: Mr. Stipp said, a figure with light upper part crossed the window from the right side to the left.

Thank you. Another point of confirmation that he was not on his stumps, but rather wearing his prosthetics.

 

[TorisMom003]

Sorry, rant coming up so feel free to pass over this post.

It is ticking me off that time and time again OP has the nerve to say "the incident" when talking about the shooting and killing of Reeva. We are not talking about the shooting of a window or some other inanimate object that can easily be replaced. We are talking about the death of a lovely woman that did nothing more than date the wrong man. The wrong man that decided that he would aim and shoot a gun at a door with a human being (Reeva) behind it. For him to continually say "the incident" makes it seem that he is trying to make light of what HE has done. It is ticking me off. More than whatever Nel or Roux does or does not do to any of the witnesses on the stand. This "man" OP can NOT take full responsibility for what HE has done. He is a coward and a , IMO.

MOO

 

[minor4th]

Agreed. But it is also shouldn't be interpreted as the two of them being in a loving relationship either.

It suggests they were in a loving relationship.

 

[KarenUK]

Suffolk coastal calling.... Nel said he is wrapping up his cross today.

Suffolk coastal here also - small world!

That surprised me, I thought there were so many more things he could have queried with OP - but I think he did a good job, maybe any more questions would have over-egged the pudding

 

[Lyra500]

BBM

sad when its put that way. It wouldn't take much effort to at least do that.

adding to this is that he went upstairs after arriving and showered and watched *advertiser censored*....or watched *advertiser censored* and then showered>we don't know.......

Eeurgh! Thanks for that image.

He is thoroughly unpleasant isn't he? No manners, no idea how to behave (gets that from his family if their collective behaviour since the shooting is anything to go by), childish and petulent to the point of seeming like a spoilt toddler, totally self absorbed and self important, misogynistic and violent to the point of killing.

Really - what's not to love? :facepalm:

 

[TrueDetective]

I don't know about you but if someone shot my daughter dead I would want the person responsible to be badgered bullied by any means necessary to get at the truth whatever it is. How can you not want that too?

Don't expect a response. I'm still waiting for mine...

 

[aoibhinn]

If she had her arm across her stomach and was facing the door then it could be that she was holding the door handle with her right hand so she could turn the key with the left .
That would indicate she had just gone in there and just locked the door or just about to go out .
Or if frightened that she was holding the handle because she thought someone might attempt to pull it open .
I also think it is quite possible that she was doing exactly what Nel had said and was talking to OP but I am not sure Nel has proved that scenario yet . Hopefully he might add more strength to his hypothesis during summing up.
I do not think for a second she was expecting to be shot or had any idea he even had a gun aimed.
I am also kind of confused why the prosecution wanted it on record about Reeva knocking the magazine rack when their ballistic guy said the same as the defence witness today .
Any ideas on that anyone ?
TIA

BIB Agreed on all points.

The original post confused a little as it indicated that her right arm was crossed over her tummy, with the right hand pointing at the left hip and also suggested that the right hand was on the door handle. Her right hand could only have been in one position or the other. I need to watch it....

 

[jassy writer]

It suggests they were in a loving relationship.

I disagree. To me it shows more that Reeva hoped they would be. Where is the reciprocal card and gift from OP, who was apparently hoping to go back to a party he'd left earlier that evening in any case.

Less than a month earlier he told the press he was not in any relationship because women lie when they say they don't mind how busy you are.

That says a lot about his feelings for women in general and Reeva in particular. He was self obsessed above all else and I feel the relationships he did best in were those with younger malleable women with less sense of their own identity, who were prepared to do as they were told.

Ironically, Reeva's "I love you" in her card might have raised her expectations about his behaviour on the night of the killing, even if he had not yet read the card, and might actually have contributed towards conflict that led to the fight. Who knows, but definitely a theory.