Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

[DebinGA]

I find it quite astonishing (as stated often upthread) that this guy has done all the forensics for OP. What happened to the American Forensics Team they had especially flown in. Is that the evidence we are hearing from this guy?

IIRC an American firm did an animated reenactment. Don't know re forensics.

 

[G.bng]

BIB. No. Moving a corpse does not reverse its state of clinically dead to allow for "a last breath." A dead person is dead, no more breaths are physically possible.

I have just rejoined this thread. Why is that even an issue?

BIB: Sorry Viper but that is not exactly the case. The other day with all the discussions on time of death, arterial spurts, rigor, breathing, etc. I thought to look it up and discovered some curious facts.

Depending on whether Reeva's brain-stem, (the part which controls involuntary movements such as breathing), was still functioning, Reeva could have breathed after she would have medically tested as brain-dead, (this concurs with Saayman's evidence that the head shot would have been "almost instantly fatal"), because a wound to the top of the head would be unlikely to injure the brain-stem which is attached to the brain underneath.

From how I understand "brain dead" and "brain-stem dead", and those interested should probably look it up for themselves, Reeva's brain-stem most likely stopped working due to a lack of oxygen (hypoxia) and most likely due to a blockage from aspiration of blood, vomit or whatever and not from the head injury, so even if brain dead, Reeva could have still breathed after the head shot (Dr Saayman testified to this) until the brain-stem stopped working.

Again from my understanding, Reeva's brain-stem must still have been working when OP got her downstairs and started to clear her airways, otherwise how to explain her "jaw-clenching" (an involuntary action typical of brain trauma victims and not rigor as some thought which takes some 2hrs to start), Dr Stipp describes that had OP's fingers caught between her teeth when he arrived and which he helped OP to release... unless the jaw-clenching happened upstairs and OP carried Reeva downstairs with his fingers clenched between her teeth which seems highly unlikely.

And even once Reeva was brain as well as brain-stem dead, her heart could have still carried on beating for a time, (the heart it appears comes with its own "electrical" supply), which would explain the arterial spurt found on the ground floor sofa falling from the landing above as OP passed near the void carrying Reeva downstairs (PT's spatter expert testified to this), as well as any arterial spurting on stairs or in the hall if there were other spurts found on these of which I am unsure.

Here links to two explanations on "jaw-clenching" that I used for my research as well as google searches and Wikipedia entries, e.g. brain, brain-stem, brain dead, Brain-stem dead, difference between brain dead & brain-stem dead, etc., etc.:

http://www.nursingassistanteducation.com/site/courses/eng/nae-thbi-eng.php
(scroll to section "KINDS OF HEAD INJURIES" and sub sections "Contusions and lacerations" and "Acute subdural hematoma, both listing "jaw-clenching" as a complication with the second sub section being, imo, the most relative here as it appears to fit with the description of Reeva's top of the head injury:

This injury is seen right after an accident. It involves the seeping of blood in the layers of the brain. Most brain injury deaths happen with this kind of brain injury.

And:

http://medicineemergency.blogspot.co.uk/2009/03/special-considerations.html
(scroll down to the section called "Jaw-clenching" which notes in respect of these spasms:

Hypertonus induced by neurologic dysfunction is a common complicating factor of airway management, especially in the patient with multiple injuries, drug overdose, or seizures. Jaw clenching may be a lethal complication when it prevents clearing of blood, vomitus, or foreign bodies in the airway. No more difficult airway problem exists than occlusion of the nasal and oral passages by vomitus while the patient's teeth are tightly clenched. Respiratory efforts may lead to severe aspiration, and although the hypertonus gradually gives way as the brainstem becomes progressively hypoxic, the cerebrocortical hypoxic insult sustained in the process may be irreversible.

 

[TorisMom003]

So according to OP, shouting and screaming before he sees the damage he has done to Reeva by shooting her is appropriate. However, shouting and screaming after he actually sees the damage he has done was not needed. Doesn't really make sense to him for him to do that after he sees Reeva.

This man is really, really infuriating. I guess this is one more way that OP is not a reasonable person.

MOO

 

[whiterum]

Just yesterday, the BBC and the Telegraph suggested there was at least another couple of full days to go of Nel questioning OP on the stand. Then today, quite suddenly, he ended his cross without going through some of the finer details I would have expected him to. For example, the trip upstairs, the missing phone (who took it and why??), the toilet door slamming (why didn't he suggest to OP that Reeva must have been upset when she slammed the door?). He was much more subdued (Nel) than the last few days. Hmmmm. I'm not a lawyer so I realise he did whatever he thought he had to do. But I have to admit I was surprised at the sudden end.

As regards the door being slammed you can be sure up the line it will be claimed that with the door supposedly being tight against the frame RS would have had to pull it really hard to close it , resulting in a slam. IMO OP later realised he had made a boob about the slam and laid the groundwork for that question by claiming the door was stiff in anticipation that it would be asked.

 

[TipDog]

Oh I think she knew that he had a temper before the first shot. I don't think that she knew just how bad his temper really was. I don't think that she had any idea that he would get his gun and shoot her. Yell, scream, curse, attempt to hit her with his hand, things of that nature, YES. Shoot to kill her, NO. Not until he fired that first shot.

MOO

BIB

And this is the most heartbreaking part about her untimely death, IMO. She didn't know. She'd not have gone back over there if she had ever dreamed he would do something like this to her - and on Valentine's Day, of all days.

Whether the state can prove it was intentional or not, he needs to be locked away for many years. By the very nature of this crime and the recklessness it involves, I think we can all agree that OP is a very dangerous man.

 

[Lyra500]

I just had the strangest thought reading this - and forgive me if anyone else has already put this in this thread or on the forum.

What if Reeva had a really awful night with OP, was deflated that he hadn't even thought of her for VD, they had argued, etc. and got up to sneak to the bathroom to put her clothes on and get out of there without waking OP and getting into another argument?

She opened the bathroom window and threw her jeans out of them knowing that putting them on might make too much noise (yes, putting denim on skin is noisy in the dead of night.) Perhaps, she even did this before OP got up to play cha-cha with the fans. Maybe she purposely bunched the duvet up to make it appear as if she might be beneath it.

Then dipwit OP went commando and shot through the door knowing full well there was a person behind it but maybe, in some parallel universe, far, far away in a distant galaxy, he is somehow on some level telling a tiny bit of truth (he is a rather paranoid, twitchy type, and way too reckless with his gun).

I don't really believe anything I've written and please don't discredit me for it. I do whole-heartedly believe the opposite and that he killed her in a fit of rage.

But sometimes truth really is stranger than fiction and if something liked that happened, it would explain some of his inconsistencies. I mean, if they were arguing but he didn't mean to shoot her (per his version), he still would not even want to admit the arguing at all. See what I mean? He may feel he must lie about all of it in order to be found not guilty. When, in fact (per his version), the devil really is in the details.

So, just musings is all. But what if that poor girl really did get shot being mistaken as a burglar by a very disturbed man while trying to sneak out in the middle of the night.

- didn't turn lights on
- didn't immediately yell out to him or try to tell him where she was
- jeans thrown out window (presumably)
- didn't turn cell light on (possible she could have felt her way to the bathroom just as OP claimed he did)
- bag packed
- snack eaten
- no gift for her and she really didn't want to spend the night there anyway
- hot/muggy night with no AC - who's to say she couldn't sleep that night and was literally wide awake thinking of how she'd made a mistake with OP


Again, I don't believe this, but it did just pop into my head. (And to be very, very clear - this is not in any way blaming Reeva. She did nothing at any point to deserve the horrible fate she suffered.)

Except that we have five witnesses who either heard a woman screaming in fear of her life or a woman and a man shouting and screaming - not just for a moment but for some time before the shots finally rang out.

 

[soozieqtips]

I cannot believe all the comments suggesting that a card from Reeva saying "I love you" is somehow evidence of an abusive relationship!

What comments? "All" the comments? Haven't seen a single post that says a Valentine's Day card is evidence of an abusive relationship.

 

[james83]

Interesting that Dixon seemed suprised that oscar could have broken the door in only 3 blows, I smell another lie and some more tailoring.

 

[steveml]

I did try to suggest that people shouldn't build their hopes up regarding additional phone texts, whatsapp messages, iPods etc.

Roux had seen all the possible incriminating evidence during discovery, so he knew the PT had played their best hand.
He wouldn't leave anything big like that for OP to handle with Nel during cross. It would have been brought out earlier to minimize any potential damage.

 

[Really?]

I don't think anyone in my house locks the bathroom door. The only time I lock it, is if I'm home alone and bathing or taking a shower.

I've seen psycho.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

haha...agree on Psyco

however...my DH and I always lock the door. I knock on a closed door, so, why he locks it ? I'm not sure.......but DH, well he is storm trooper,....bargy guy...so I always lock.

Hope that made sense, lol.

I have to add that a closed toilet door in our house does not always mean it is 'occupied'. We have no fan so we open the window. We close the door if the weather is not nice.

 

[TrueDetective]

I did try to suggest that people shouldn't build their hopes up regarding additional phone texts, whatsapp messages, iPods etc.

Roux had seen all the possible incriminating evidence during discovery, so he knew the PT had played their best hand.
He wouldn't leave anything big like that for OP to handle with Nel during cross. It would have been brought out earlier to minimize any potential damage.

Very true. I did expect something else. Maybe it was wiped somehow from the missing phone. See Shane for details!

Still surprised the *advertiser censored* was not discussed in more detail. Roux clearly tried to bring this out before x-exam but in the end, Nel didn't even bother to go there.

 

[whiterum]

So according to OP, shouting and screaming before he sees the damage he has done to Reeva by shooting her is appropriate. However, shouting and screaming after he actually sees the damage he has done was not needed. Doesn't really make sense to him for him to do that after he sees Reeva.

This man is really, really infuriating. I guess this is one more way that OP is not a reasonable person.

MOO

Such a claim is insulting to the intelligence of My Lady. I'm sure she was thinking to herself 'beam him up Scottie'.

 

[TipDog]

In fairness, I don't believe he thought he was capable either.
Insight certainly isn't his strong suit. In his head, he believes it was an accident, he didn't mean to killer her. He believes SHE made him do it.

All IMO


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Oh, no. Not just your opinion, mine too. I actually believe he's convinced himself that all of it was an accident, just one big accident.

That's not unusual thinking in the case of rage-fueled murders.

 

[soozieqtips]

BIB

And this is the most heartbreaking part about her untimely death, IMO. She didn't know. She'd not have gone back over there if she had ever dreamed he would do something like this to her - and on Valentine's Day, of all days.

Whether the state can prove it was intentional or not, he needs to be locked away for many years. By the very nature of this crime and the recklessness it involves, I think we can all agree that OP is a very dangerous man.

BIB - You'd think we could all agree that, wouldn't you? But no. I've seen one poster regularly present information as facts... 'facts' which always happen to support OP. This is supposed to be a victim-friendly site! OP was unhinged, unpredictable, angry, self obsessed, self absorbed, selfish, controlling, manipulative and deceitful. He was an accident waiting to happen, and if he escapes jail for some reason, God help any woman that gets involved with him and his temper.

 

[DebinGA]

Very true. I did expect something else. Maybe it was wiped somehow from the missing phone. See Shane for details!

Still surprised the *advertiser censored* was not discussed in more detail. Roux clearly tried to bring this out before x-exam but in the end, Nel didn't even bother to go there.

I think the poor PT phone guy provided the "interesting" names of the *advertiser censored* sites and the time they were accessed (around 6:30 p.m. iirc). OP put RS in the kitchen cooking chicken stir-fry at that time, and himself upstairs "changing clothes".

 

[TipDog]

Except that we have five witnesses who either heard a woman screaming in fear of her life or a woman and a man shouting and screaming - not just for a moment but for some time before the shots finally rang out.

Yes, Lyra. 100% agree. And I do think she was murdered intentionally (even if it was OP losing it in rage).

The idea of her trying to sneak out was just thoughts I had. As I mentioned, it could only happen in some other universe. But it did occur to me since we all simply don't know.

 

[Emz73]

I cannot believe all the comments suggesting that a card from Reeva saying "I love you" is somehow evidence of an abusive relationship!

You're not gaslighting are you?

 

[Really?]

I've seen Mr. Lahoud speak in the documentaries that I watched online. He had a 4.5 year relationship with Reeva. They lived together. He comes across as a real gent, a lovely guy. He accepted Reeva's relationship with OP and maintained a friendship with her.

In one of the documentaries he describes meeting her on Feb. 12th for coffee. He mentioned that OP kept texting her while they were together. Mr. Lahoud became concerned and asked Reeva if OP was OK with their meeting for coffee.

Reeva brushed it off, saying it was fine. IMO, that's not fine. It's possessive, controlling behaviour.

this ^ is what I am going to put to yous.....(NJ-speak)....that this ^ is what the argument was about that night. OP questioning her over and over and over and......over .....about her feelings for her ex. What was spoken or exchanged or planned .......yikes.

Just like he asked " what else did you do in Jamaica ?" ...when finding out she toked a spleef............over and over.....that will get a non argumentative person riled. moo

 

[james83]

I think the poor PT phone guy provided the "interesting" names of the *advertiser censored* sites and the time they were accessed (around 6:30 p.m. iirc). OP put RS in the kitchen cooking chicken stir-fry at that time, and himself upstairs "changing clothes".

So cooking chicken and choking chicken if you like.

 

[TrueDetective]

I think the poor PT phone guy provided the "interesting" names of the *advertiser censored* sites and the time they were accessed (around 6:30 p.m. iirc). OP put RS in the kitchen cooking chicken stir-fry at that time, and himself upstairs "changing clothes".

Yes, clearly an obvious opportunity for Nel to use the actual evidence to discredit OP's testimony but for whatever reason he didn't. I'm still surprised by that.