Trial Discussion Thread #26 - 14.04.15, Day 23

[Rumpole]

Well there's a pile of evidence on the prosecutions side.

On oscars side, we gave Oscar...the words of a proven liar with a motive to lie.

We ourselves have common sense.

IMO

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But don't forget that people here posted that Experts testimony is to be accepted since they are basing it on their experience and qualifications, and lay witnesses are just relaying what they really heard and saw.

We already have two Defence experts supporting OP's version, and no doubt a few honest citizen neighbors to come. Actually even the State witnesses support OP's version... If you consider the main points of experts, and what the ear witnesses actually HEARD rather than what they imagine those sounds to be.

naturally it is ONLY OP who can give "OP's" version.... and that could contain self serving comments, but... that is why we have a trial.. to evaluate evidence to see if it supports, or disproves (beyond reasonable doubt). So far almost everything supports OP's version

 

[Goforgold]

He testified the other day that at this point Reeva wasn't breathing .. now he is saying "I heard her breathing"

Jeebus.....forgot that o e....what did he do up there should have been asked.

Rethinking...why bother....it will all be lies and drivel .

I believe Nel should have touched on the fact OP went back upstairs when the doctor was there, even if it was to bring to attention that in that time OP could have been arranging 'things' to look like he believed their was an intruder.

 

[aoibhinn]

is the meal/time not substantiated by the contents of her stomach and digestion times?

It is sleuth-d. By OP's account they ate chicken stir-fry at 7pm-ish.

The medical examiner did not find chicken in her stomach. He found vegetable and white cheese, suggesting a later snack.

 

[Rumpole]

is the meal/time not substantiated by the contents of her stomach and digestion times?

No

Defence expert explained. That is NOT considered an accurate or reliable way of determining times precisely.

 

[kittychi]

Almost more ridiculous than the idea of a man on his stumps with one hand on the wall in a state of terror and panic with no time to think accidentally unconsciously firing 4 shots into a door he wasn't aiming at in the dark and getting all 4 shots in a close enough proximity to suggest the shots were aimed and directed, before with the gun still in hand getting up onto his bed and jumping off the other side, opening sliding doors with the gun still in hand running back to the bathroom with the gun still in hand, shoulder charging the toilet door that opened outwards still with a gun cocked in his hand, doing all this whilst screaming like a woman who was in fear of her life before finally breaking down the toilet door and stopping screaming all together immediately.

Wow, James83, great summary of Oscar's entire testimony.

:clap: :takeabow:

 

[aoibhinn]

But don't forget that people here posted that Experts testimony is to be accepted since they are basing it on their experience and qualifications, and lay witnesses are just relaying what they really heard and saw.

We already have two Defence experts supporting OP's version, and no doubt a few honest citizen neighbors to come. Actually even the State witnesses support OP's version... If you consider the main points of experts, and what the ear witnesses actually HEARD rather than what they imagine those sounds to be.

naturally it is ONLY OP who can give "OP's" version.... and that could contain self serving comments, but... that is why we have a trial.. to evaluate evidence to see if it supports, or disproves (beyond reasonable doubt). So far almost everything supports OP's version

Unfortunately, there are as many issues with 'expert testimony' as 'eyewitness testimony'. Allow me to refer you to the results of a quick Google search :-

https://www.google.ie/#q=the+problem+with+expert+testimony

 

[soozieqtips]

But don't forget that people here posted that Experts testimony is to be accepted since they are basing it on their experience and qualifications, and lay witnesses are just relaying what they really heard and saw.

We already have two Defence experts supporting OP's version, and no doubt a few honest citizen neighbors to come. Actually even the State witnesses support OP's version... If you consider the main points of experts, and what the ear witnesses actually HEARD rather than what they imagine those sounds to be.

naturally it is ONLY OP who can give "OP's" version.... and that could contain self serving comments, but... that is why we have a trial.. to evaluate evidence to see if it supports, or disproves (beyond reasonable doubt). So far almost everything supports OP's version

BBM - which version?

 

[Bobbie Elliott]

In Oscar-Speak and Oscar-World, Oscar just assumes everyone is out to trick him, so he must countertrick them first (or last if need be).

Do you think that this is a pervasive paranoia, or just arises when questioned in court??

If a pervasive paranoia, OP would perceive challenges from all sorts of "normal" comments and questions in his everyday life, and respond defensively &/or aggressively.

 

[Really?]

Almost more ridiculous than the idea of a man on his stumps with one hand on the wall in a state of terror and panic with no time to think accidentally unconsciously firing 4 shots into a door he wasn't aiming at in the dark and getting all 4 shots in a close enough proximity to suggest the shots were aimed and directed, before with the gun still in hand getting up onto his bed and jumping off the other side, opening sliding doors with the gun still in hand running back to the bathroom with the gun still in hand, shoulder charging the toilet door that opened outwards still with a gun cocked in his hand, doing all this whilst screaming like a woman who was in fear of her life before finally breaking down the toilet door and stopping screaming all together immediately.

:floorlaugh:

 

[Really?]

This is what fascinates me too.

I'd love to have Minor4th's take on this. Minor, do you feel (a) OP shot totally by accident, i.e. it was some sort of muscle spasm, or (b) that he shot because he thought someone was coming out of the toilet to attack him?

In other words, was there intent or was there not? And, if so, what was the intent?

I do believe he said he shot at the door fearing an intruder on the other side.....but did not intentionally mean to pull the trigger. It was an accident....aimed, fired.. but did not shoot <---Oscar-speak. moo

 

[molly333]

Did we learn anything new today?

I'm flummoxed and frustrated.

Looks like I have to give up my theory of Reeva breaking up with him.

So I'm back to square zero about any argument that could escalate to murder.

Nel didn't deal with the locked door at all, and ended with a whimper, not a bang.

All my theories are down the drain.

 

[TipDog]

No, I don't think that's true. It's only more compelling given the outcome if you assume he intentionally killed her.

Likewise...the VD card from Reeva is only more compelling...if you assume he "accidentally" killed her.

But either way, the proof of a loving relationship just isn't there in this case, and given the outcome, that's pretty significant. It would bode better for OP if no messages had been found revealing anything other than "XX-Baba-Angel." And it would be in his favor if June Steenkamp, who was very close to her daughter, backed his notion that his and Reeva's relationship was more serious than it was, or that Reeva's sister could validate this too - but, they don't.

For me personally, it's a far greater leap to believe the deep love was there than not there. And I mean love, not 20 something infatuation and lust.

 

[sleuth-d-]

Here in the US the only way it would be a justifieable homicide is if he thouht his life was threatened. Even if we believe the lie about him thinking intruder, there is no way his life was being threatened at that moment. He could have ran out of the house.

The prosecution just needs to try to prove that he is lying about thinking it was intruder. But even if they fail, he should be guilty of manslaughter at a minimum because his life was not in jeaporday because the person was locked on other side of door. He was the aggressor and pursued the person.

JMO of course.

"his life was not in jeaporday because the person was locked on other side of door".

if he thought the intruder had a gun... his life clearly was in jeopardy. as he has proved it is possible to be shot through that very door.

but he hasn't gone with this version.

 

[Goforgold]

Totally agree, he had her out of that toilet before doing anything for a reason, despite it being obvious that she was dead... and also wanted her downstairs as quick as possible.

Could that have been because he didn't want anyone upstairs as there were telltale signs of a fight, which he went back up to rearrange when doctor was there? He said he held Reeva for 5 minutes, which was the time he needed to come up with an excuse for shooting her.

 

[Rumpole]

Did we learn anything new today?

I'm flummoxed and frustrated.

Looks like I have to give up my theory of Reeva breaking up with him.

So I'm back to square zero about any argument that could escalate to murder.

Nel didn't deal with the locked door at all, and ended with a whimper, not a bang.

All my theories are down the drain.

We did finally learn what the State case is.

I think people who are routing for a Guilty verdict have reason to be disappointed.



We also learned that nel wants a 2 week adjournment to attend to personal matters(vacation) I do hope the Judge says "NO. Get on and finish the trial"

 

[molly333]

We did finally learn what the State case is.

I think people who are routing for a Guilty verdict have reason to be disappointed.

What did we learn? I think I checked out at the end of cross examination, it was getting so dry. He wasn't the hard driving prosecutor today, IMO.

 

[Linda7NJ]

But don't forget that people here posted that Experts testimony is to be accepted since they are basing it on their experience and qualifications, and lay witnesses are just relaying what they really heard and saw.

We already have two Defence experts supporting OP's version, and no doubt a few honest citizen neighbors to come. Actually even the State witnesses support OP's version... If you consider the main points of experts, and what the ear witnesses actually HEARD rather than what they imagine those sounds to be.

naturally it is ONLY OP who can give "OP's" version.... and that could contain self serving comments, but... that is why we have a trial.. to evaluate evidence to see if it supports, or disproves (beyond reasonable doubt). So far almost everything supports OP's version

The "experts" weren't there.
The "experts" can be bought, same as they are in this country.



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[shane13]

Do you think that this is a pervasive paranoia, or just arises when questioned in court??

If a pervasive paranoia, OP would perceive challenges from all sorts of "normal" comments and questions in his everyday life, and respond defensively &/or aggressively.

Oscar is an immensely complex individual with (IMO) many things wrong with him. Most are of an episodic nature.

 

[TipDog]

You are a wonderfully insightful poster and I enjoy reading your posts

Wow, thank you, True. That is so sweet of you. :hug:

To be honest, I'm terribly naive when it comes to the law. So, whenever it turns too legalese, I zip it. But otherwise, I'm very fascinated by this case. I'm not quite old enough to be the mother of a woman Reeva's age when she died, but I still feel this maternal tug. I just can't keep from thinking, "if only she hadn't met him....if only she'd decided to end the relationship the first or second time he snapped at her...if only she'd not gone back over there..." and so forth.

 

[Rumpole]

What did we learn? I think I checked out at the end of cross examination, it was getting so dry. He wasn't the hard driving prosecutor today, IMO.

From the Daily Mirror "Live Blog" during the trial....

The prosecutor says he believes the court will make the following findings:

• That Reeva ate within two hours of Pistorius having shot and killed her
• That while Reeva was awake and eating, there was argument which was heard by neighbour Van der Merwe
• Witnesses Johnson, Burger and Stipps heard Reeva's "blood curdling" screams when she escaped from Pistorius
• Pistorius fired four shots through the door knowing it was her
• Pistorius armed himself with the sole purpose of shooting Reeva

The athlete denies all of these.



Not much of a "Version" IMO