Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

[TorisMom003]

BIB

Although I very much agree with you about the drama in court, I don't think the judge should ask her to leave.

We must all remember that Aimee had nothing to do with this and OP is her brother. She's hurting, as is the Pistorius family as they fear they are about to lose OP to prison.

And in case anyone here doesn't know (although, I'm betting you all do), SA prisons are infamous for what happens inside them. Going to prison in SA even for 5-10 years can and often does completely destroy the person, if he/she even survives the ordeal.

If you're interested, this is an article that speaks to the human rights issues in the prisons there, especially with respect to HIV and sexual violence: http://www.irinnews.org/report/96461/south-africa-dealing-with-sexual-abuse-in-prison

That is just one article, if you google, there are many, including stories from prisoners who've survived (and they are graphic). Even if OP is treated a little differently due to his disability, he won't be entirely protected, unless you really have want to have faith in an already horribly corrupt system over there.

I'm sure OP is aware of this, as is his family. This may very well be one of the biggest reasons he refuses to accept full blame for any of the charges against him. I really think he and his DT want him to walk with a slap on the wrist and spend no time in jail. And, I'm sure the DT will use his disability at time of sentencing and in future appeals to plead for a lesser sentence.

While I can understand and sympathize with all of that, I find it incredibly disrespectful to Reeva's family and friends. They have been sitting over there listening to the same things that OP and his family/friends have been. Reeva's family and friends have behaved very admirably IMO. They have actually lost Reeva, forever. Reeva will never come back, not in 25 years, not in 15 years, NEVER. If OP goes to prison for the crime that HE committed, his family and friends will have him back. They will still be able to see him, talk to him, etc. If the judge feels that Aimee should be allowed to stay in the courtroom then perhaps Aimee should be told to stop the theatrics. If Aimee can not comply, then she needs to watch the trial unfold at home on the tv so that she can mourn however she sees fit without it affecting the family of the true victim in this case.

MOO

 

[TipDog]

As you know, I've said many times here over the last month, that OP was not in a sate of rage. Rather he was in a state incorporating schadenfreude or sadism during the final killing scenario. Supported in part by the earwitness calling his fake help screams as "mockery." [Dr.Burger]

I certainly respect your opinion. But for me to believe this, I need more evidence for sure, and the PT has failed to provide it. Sorry, but there has to be more evidence to support a sadistic type killing of a young woman the killer knew for such a short period of time. If this had happened to Samantha Taylor, I'd allow myself to start considering the possibility of it. But not with Reeva.

In my mind, he did not mistake her for an intruder, but he did not become a sudden, mocking sadist either. Both are too far fetched - and honestly, the man is too dense. Firing in rage with his trigger-happy, gun lust is far more plausible given his own behavior in court than any planned and executed attempt to torment, then kill.

M2¢

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Good evening everybody I just pulled 12 hours at work today. Blooming clients, don't they watch the Oscar Trial??

I am just watching the Geologists testimony this morning... forgive me, is it he that is relying on on the defence of automatism?! I am not qualified to really judge his credibility but his voice hardlymakes him compelling IMO. Just getting to Nel's cross examination n a tick... is it really bad? I saw the PT experts s******ing at one point in a snippet.

I think that is the only defence available to him at the moment and we really have to hope the judge couldn't and wouldn't be persuaded that this was in fact the case here .
The only thing that is automatic to OP is to categorically deny anything that could portray him in a negative light and never take the blame for anything .

 

[liesbeth]

A mocking tone being heard 177 metres away is very hard to believe.

Mrs. Burger didn't testify that it was a mocking tone. She offered the explanation only after being pressed by Roux for an opinion. Roux wanted to know why she thought OP would have screamed like that. She told him she didn't know, he had to ask OP. Then Roux said she was unhelpful. So she said she'd wondered about that herself, maybe OP was mocking Reeva? And Roux accused her of hating OP. Nel objected.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-26430238

 

[KarenUK]

Good evening everybody I just pulled 12 hours at work today. Blooming clients, don't they watch the Oscar Trial??

Yes, I know this feeling - all this week and most of last I have been in at work at 6am and not leaving until 7pm - with only a few chances to check the forum for news of the trial!
Gosh darn them all to Hull ;-)

 

[kaos]

Thank you. I would hate to go back and listen to all that all over again. But I think Nel missed an important "slip of tongue." (I'm sure there will be some on here to laugh at my making that assumption, but IMO, when testifying, semantics matter more than when someone is just having a conversation.)

Of course, logically, I cannot create a scenario in my head where OP would need to kneel in order to shoot through the door, especially if he's threatened RS, she's screaming and he shoots her in rage. It would make more sense that he'd be standing.

So, never mind...

Thanks
Why do you think Nel has it on the record about OP stating that he crouched down . I am at a loss to explain this if it wasn't related to the facts pertaining to OP's legs and overall height

I posted the other day about the 'crouching' because I think it would be impossible for OP to crouch on his stumps as he'd have no counterbalancing ability. I think kneeling would also be a struggle without his legs on as your feet are used to prop you up when kneeling.

Good evening everybody I just pulled 12 hours at work today. Blooming clients, don't they watch the Oscar Trial??

I am just watching the Geologists testimony this morning... forgive me, is it he that is relying on on the defence of automatism?! I am not qualified to really judge his credibility but his monotone voice hardly makes him compelling IMO. Just getting to Nel's cross examination n a tick... is it really bad? I saw the PT experts s******ing at one point in a snippet.

ETA, the software blocked my use of sn iggering... in the UK that is chuckling/hidden laughter.... dont mean to offend

That happened to me today too

Just another throwaway observation from myself but the gun that Mr Dixon bought which he'd said jambed repeatedly. If it's possible that OP's gun jambed even once during the shooting then that would surely definitely mean murder as it would give him more than a second or two to decide whether to continue shooting or stop?

 

[DebinGA]

I got the impression today that Roux and m'lady were exerting all their self-control to hide their mirth at Nel's astonished reactions to Mr. Dixon.

 

[TipDog]

Well...why would he yell for help either out of regret or to actually receive help before firing his gun?
The mocking is deplorable but it's the only thing that makes sense to me in the totality of the evidence. Everything else I've mentioned leads me to conclude it had to have been mocking as it occurred before the gunshots - or Oscar waited 17 minutes to break down the door - or he was screaming like a woman before he fired.
.

The word "help" isn't just for when we need immediate assistance. I know I've cried over the death of a loved one and said "help" aloud among other words. I've also said "help" aloud during an earthquake (LA Nothridge Quake, 1994 - man, was it a doozie!). And I'm pretty certain when I was pulled over for speeding years ago that I said "help" aloud in hopes the officer would give me a warning prior to him walking up to my window (the universe heard me and it worked!)

So, it is very possible that OP, upon realizing what he'd done, could have become very remorseful, panicked (obviously), and, I believe, quickly into "what do I do now for myself" mode and not "what do I do now to help Reeva" - he knew immediately upon getting through that bathroom door that she was dead, no matter how much he sat up on that stand and lied through his teeth.

When I suggest that it could have been a moment of madness for him, I mean that he wasn't crying for actual, immediate help in the heightened situation he was currently in (if he'd dialed 911/security, then he would have). And often, in panic, we do things that make no sense whatsoever except that they are the universal norm. E.g., OP could have simply been crying out. He may have even cried "Reeva, Reeva!" for all we know (although, I don't believe he screamed it as no one heard it). The helps that he yelled could have just been automatic once he realized what he'd done.

And no matter which version any of us believe, he did cry help, help, help - to my mind, the least likely reason would be to mock her sadistically. Instead, it was in a panicked moment, because he realized what he'd done (which also fits both versions).

 

[Britlaws]

I think that is the only defence available to him at the moment and we really have to hope the judge couldn't and wouldn't be persuaded that this was in fact the case here .
The only thing that is automatic to OP is to categorically deny anything that could portray him in a negative light and never take the blame for anything .

Sorry, I was being a little facetious about the expert, who sounds like a tape recorded automaton. Now I have watched a bit of the cross examination, I feel more sorry for him.

 

[shane13]

I posted the other day about the 'crouching' because I think it would be impossible for OP to crouch on his stumps as he'd have no counterbalancing ability. I think kneeling would also be a struggle without his legs on as your feet are used to prop you up when kneeling.




That happened to me today too

Just another throwaway observation from myself but the gun that Mr Dixon bought which he'd said jambed repeatedly. If it's possible that OP's gun jambed even once during the shooting then that would surely definitely mean murder as it would give him more than a second or two to decide whether to continue shooting or stop?

I doubt OP's gun jambed.
Like everything else from Dixon, that sounds ludicrous.

He sad the gun was new. So just give it back to whoever he bought if from and get another one.

Sounds like they either were running out of time, or were too cheap to do things right. MOO

 

[Linda7NJ]

Wait so no one has mock you or made any sarcastic remarks to you in an argument before?

It's my personal forte
...blushing....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[aa9511]

I think by "crouch" OP was describing this firing position - legs bent, upper body forward, gun held between shoulder and waist:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...frp_12_80_p119.png/220px-Fmfrp_12_80_p119.png

Nel immediately pounced on the word "crouched" - so that version probably disappeared fast. That's the way I see OP though - on his legs, ready to fire, and the bathroom light burning brightly.

Yes, I don't know if he crouched or what, but I can think of a couple of positions (on his prosthetics) where the gun would fire from around where it would fire at in the experts' opinion, which was I believe on his stumps with arm extending out straight from his shoulder. If on his stumps, he would have had to adopt that position (from his shoulder), to get the placement of bullet holes at the right height. This picture you attached illustrates that very well.

JMO.

 

[liesbeth]

If we believe that the shooting was a moment of rage, then surely we have to discount the idea of OP ripping out a portion of the door, so he could see Reeva.

The action of not deciding to shoot Reeva when he had her clearly within his sights, but instead deciding to shoot through the door to make it look like an intruder, is a calculated action.

This doesn't correlate with the actions of someone losing their temper and shooting on the spur of the moment.

Maybe he was angry enough to go after Reeva with the bat. She locked herself in the toilet. On his stumps he bashed the door but couldn't get at her. He got his gun and shot her. Then he put on his legs and broke open the door.

 

[benn25]

Mr Dixon, Mr Dixon, Mr Dixon. Tut tut tut. Speaking to the accused. Never heard the recording from the music producer. No expertise in wound ballistics. No report. Who is this guy? This guy is a shambles. Why oh why have defence brought this guy up to the stand. Nel is murdering him here. (No pun intended)

 

[Linda7NJ]

I'm not an expert, nor a chemist, but I totally disagree. Although I totally believe OP is guilty BARD, he is paying for a top notch defense. Not the guy who was on the stand today, who used a music producer, internet, testified about things he is NOT qualified in as an expert , and so on soforth. You must be familiar with duck and diving?

Lmao @ chemist!

Those were fun times


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Insp.Dots]

This is close to what I think happened. But in my theory, he is screaming at her in an uncontrollable rage and kicking and banging on the door. I think he may have even used the bat once or twice but decided to get the gun. He came back and took 1 look through the keyhole and saw where she was and then blasted in her direction 4 rapid shots.

I dont think she had a clue how violent he was about to get.

I also think that maybe that valentines day card was a clue to him that she wanted him to either say he loved her or not. I think the whole argument may have been her trying to see if he really loved her or not. He probably never told her he loved her and she was probably wanting a Yes or No. She may have said if you dont love me, I am going to have to end our relationship. Something along those lines.

Both possibilities, I have considered but and things can erupt quickly from anything like that.

I know I will be accused of being an Oscar apologist by some but I can also believe the notion of an Intruder.

This isn't actually to excuse him in anyway. But we all agree he is an arrogant, spoilt, immature being with an air of superiority. We also know he has paranoia in his mind set, not just with security but in his love life, with his friends. I imagine he has jumped down many peoples throats because he's taken things the wrong way.

He doesn't do 'thinking things through or patience, it's his way or no way!
So....at present I'm still on the fence swaying between intruder and crime of passion.

I was gutted that Nel, didn't put him under more pressure on the stand and suggest a row occurred after OP got into a jealous rage bla bla blah. As I do believe that it could have brought a strong and telling reaction from OP.
As this didn't happen I still have the Intruder theory hanging around.
The crazy thing is he could have had a row with Reeva earlier and gone to sleep in a huff, that he wouldn't want to admit now. He woke, heard a noise.... wasn't speaking to Reeva anyway as she had peeved him and he was sulking.
With that already in his head he just did as he always does and grabbed his gun, no thinking. Straight to the bathroom shouting on his way bang bang bang bang. No hesitation. THEN realization and sheer panic. Genuine emotions showing but also the knowledge that he has just gone on a rampage with no forethought, he realizes he has killed the one woman who was genuinely in love with him and is in massive trouble as he broke every rule in the book.

So sets about making up a 'poor me' scenario where he portrays a Shakespearean Tragedy that will surely work in his favour. In South African's minds before that night he was after all their Favourite Son, who had conquered the world despite his awful disabilities.
ALL MY OWN OPINION BUT NOT THE ONLY SCENARIO I HAVE IN MIND. EITHER WAY OSCAR PISTORIUS HAS COMMITTED A VERY SERIOUS CRIME AND SHOULD SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES, JUST LIKE ANYONE ELSE. :seeya:

 

[strydohj]

What is the ballistic guy onto by stating the jacket of the bullet was still around the core? Bullets just don't shed their jackets even it was impacted. So I would expect lead and copper on the wall irrespective of what trajectory it followed. Don't think I get what he is trying to explain or conclude.

 

[molly333]

Okay. Discount Burger altogether.

Explain the 17 minute gap between the defence's gunshots and breaking the door down.

And see, that's where I'm at. If I totally discount one witness, or even a bit of evidence we've argued over, I still can't get what the defence is presenting to make sense. I've really tried.

I have to believe Oscar, discount the entire State's case, disregard my own logic, and ignore that there is a huge time gap in the defence's version in which a woman, mistaken for an intruder, was lying in a pool of her own blood while no one did anything to help her or accept that Oscar was screaming like a woman for at least 12 minutes before firing his gun.

You are making it twenty minutes or 17 minutes, it could easily be ten minutes or fifteen minutes or less. These times are not written in stone.

You have to consider Dr. Stipp heard the first 'gunshots,' then the woman screaming, then he immediately called security, and while he is on the phone with security, the second 'gunshots' happen. So did Dr. Stipp sit there through 20 minutes of screaming after 'gunshots' and do nothing? No. He acted immediately. So it is probably more like 7 minutes or less between the two sets of 'gunshots.'

Then he got over to Oscar's house as fast as he could.

So did Oscar have time to break down the door etc before Stipp got there? And, his other friends were already there when Stipp got there with their garbage bags and rope all in a row.

Stipp is the Defense's star witness.

 

[Britlaws]

Yes, I don't know if he crouched or what, but I can think of a couple of positions (on his prosthetics) where the gun would fire from around where it would fire at in the experts' opinion, which was I believe on his stumps with arm extending out straight from his shoulder. If on his stumps, he would have had to adopt that position (from his shoulder), to get the placement of bullet holes at the right height. This picture you attached illustrates that very well.

JMO.

If you watch the watermelon video, I think its at 0.15 and 1.12, where he is firing handguns, if you watch his movement, he definitely dips down as he fires and appears to bend his knees. Certainly he's not in an upright position.

 

[katydid23]

Well...why would he yell for help either out of regret or to actually receive help before firing his gun?
The mocking is deplorable but it's the only thing that makes sense to me in the totality of the evidence. Everything else I've mentioned leads me to conclude it had to have been mocking as it occurred before the gunshots - or Oscar waited 17 minutes to break down the door - or he was screaming like a woman before he fired.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

When I heard about the way he was speeding in that car ride and scaring RS on purpose, that is consistent with mocking, controlling behavior. When I think of him driving over a hundred miles an hour, and laughing at her screams, I have no problem believing that he mocked her cries for help on the morning of the 14th.