Trial Discussion Thread #27 - 14.04.16, Day 24

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Mocking behavior fits perfectly with 'rageful' behavior, in my experience. It is part of the controlling, rude and mean persona. He has the gun and has all of the control. So her screams are useless, and he mocks them, in a very cruel way. I can see it quite easily. Look at the way he acted when he drove recklessly and dangerously that time, holding her captive in his car. He was mocking her that day as well.

Okay, I'll take a step back and admit that those of you stating he mocked her with the helps are making more sense (you're wearing me down!). Although, I still think the actual act of shooting her and murdering her was in rage. And I still think OP is too dense (not intelligent enough) to be a sadistic killer who thought this all out methodically before firing that gun.

But, yes, I agree, perhaps he mocked her.
 
I've only started properly following this trial since the beginning of Pistorius' testimony so this might have been covered, but one thing that (rightly or wrongly) is concerning me greatly is Reeva Steenkamp's phone.

Pistorius submitted that as he approached the corridor he screamed at Steenkamp to phone the police (as well as at the imagined intruder/s). He then appeared to testify that he spent a good deal of time approaching the bathroom yelling the same thing, then became quiet while surveying said bathroom - consolidating the relative safety of his position - before again screaming at the intruders.

Looking at this from Steenkamp's perspective: Steenkamp had her phone in the toilet (she did, right?) has suddenly realised there are intruders in the house and is being requested by an apparently retreating Pistorius to phone the police. Given these circumstances and the apparent length of time elapsing in Pistorius' version between him yelling at Reeva to phone the police and shooting through the door I would have imagined Reeva to have complied with his request.

My question then is; are there any records which show that such a call was attempted, and if not what reason should she have not to comply with Oscar's desperate requests?


That's a very good point, but do you know what? I think things were happening much faster than they appeared because of the way Nel slowed down the narrative. In the event Reeva did have her phone out and it was on (according to OP), so she was probably going in the process of complying.
 
After Nel's cross of Mr. Dixon, I wonder if the judge and her assessors feel that they wasted time and paper taking notes of this "experts" testimony. I know I am having a difficult time believing any of his opinions because of the non expert aspect of his testimony.


I doubt they think it was a complete waste. There was some significant and credible information given
 
You are legally within your rights to shoot at an intruder. In SA OP can shot an intruder only under certain well defined circumstances. A few months prior to murdering Reeva, he passed the gun ownership test with flying colors answering all the questions adhering to all the required government rules and regulations.

That is how I understand SA law too and the fact OP appears to have overstepped reasonable response may be why since Nel's cross the rumour is spreading that OP's defence is moving from putative self-defence to "involuntary action" as in the article by Constitutional lawyer Pierre do Vos, "Oscar’s ‘involuntary action’: Thin ice, Mr Pistorius".

http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ry-action-thin-ice-mr-pistorius/#.U07Py7sUF63
 
Okay, I'll take a step back and admit that those of you stating he mocked her with the helps are making more sense (you're wearing me down!). Although, I still think the actual act of shooting her and murdering her was in rage. And I still think OP is too dense (not intelligent enough) to be a sadistic killer who thought this all out methodically before firing that gun.

But, yes, I agree, perhaps he mocked her.


Noooooooo! Don't give in and start believing in an absurdity just because it's repeated over and over and over!
 
I doubt they think it was a complete waste. There was some significant and credible information given

I think it is right and proper for Nel to question a Defense expert's qualifications and experience. (IMO Nel does not help his case by being antagonistic, sarcastic and chuckling etc. But that seems to be Nel's style). The witness's qualifications are likely a factor the Judge will consider when deciding how much weight to give Dixon's testimony. However, the witness's testimony is unlikely to be just disregarded out of hand. His findings and opinions have been put to the Judge and supporting items have been admitted into evidence. The witness will ultimately be assessed based on how he came across when giving his evidence. The credibility and knowledge of the subject and information presented is something the Judge asses for every witness. The witness did present evidence and his analysis. Nel does still have to refute anything that he feels is at odds with the State's position, and the State's own experts opinions. That is why Nel wanted time to consult with State experts before getting into details. I think Dixon made some good points. IMO most of them, taken individually, have little bearing on the overall case but, as with any case, it is built up of many "blocks". I think it is VERY important that some sort of sound recording of cricket bat on door is put before the Judge and entered into evidence. Dixon's testimony enabled that to be done. For that reason alone his testimony was worthwhile. No doubt arguments over details of his testimony will ensue today, with Nel cross examining on details in his usual slow, repetitive style. The 2 week vacation has been granted, so nobody will be in a screaming hurry to do anything.
 
That is how I understand SA law too and the fact OP appears to have overstepped reasonable response may be why since Nel's cross the rumour is spreading that OP's defence is moving from putative self-defence to "involuntary action" as in the article by Constitutional lawyer Pierre do Vos, "Oscar’s ‘involuntary action’: Thin ice, Mr Pistorius".



http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ry-action-thin-ice-mr-pistorius/#.U07Py7sUF63


I think Roux established during redirect that his defense is still putative self defense - although I'm sure Nel would love for to have changed to involuntary action.
 
Well in that case then give OP a slap on the hand and send him home. After all, he didn't take Reeva from her family, friends and loved ones forever.......just until they too move on to the afterlife.

:banghead:


If he intentionally killed her, then he must face the penalty for that, regardless. I don't think justice and the afterlife are mutually exclusive. I happen to believe he's telling the truth that he mistook Reeva for an intruder. But that is quite apart from my belief in the afterlife and the need to dispense justice for all at one and the same time.
 
I doubt they think it was a complete waste. There was some significant and credible information given

How can any testimony given by an "expert" be credible when it is proven that "expert" is nothing more than an average joe giving his opinion?
 
But the validity of the test also depends on whether the sound "expert" manipulated it to sound the same

If I may do a Rumsfeld.
There are sound sound experts and unsound sound experts.
This was the latter.
And as per my above, an Ex-expert.

So alltogether: An Ex-expert, unsound sound *advertiser censored*-layman, geologist.
He has the field all to himself.

It is interesting thst Roux did not estimate that Nel would rip him apart. As noted earlier: "desperation."

And it's not just that Roux believes that Capt Mangena was a great witness. He likely knows or believes that Pros version is what actually happened--at least re PM aspect.
 
I think it is right and proper for Nel to question a Defense expert's qualifications and experience. (IMO Nel does not help his case by being antagonistic, sarcastic and chuckling etc. But that seems to be Nel's style). The witness's qualifications are likely a factor the Judge will consider when deciding how much weight to give Dixon's testimony. However, the witness's testimony is unlikely to be just disregarded out of hand. His findings and opinions have been put to the Judge and supporting items have been admitted into evidence. The witness will ultimately be assessed based on how he came across when giving his evidence. The credibility and knowledge of the subject and information presented is something the Judge asses for every witness. The witness did present evidence and his analysis. Nel does still have to refute anything that he feels is at odds with the State's position, and the State's own experts opinions. That is why Nel wanted time to consult with State experts before getting into details. I think Dixon made some good points. IMO most of them, taken individually, have little bearing on the overall case but, as with any case, it is built up of many "blocks". I think it is VERY important that some sort of sound recording of cricket bat on door is put before the Judge and entered into evidence. Dixon's testimony enabled that to be done. For that reason alone his testimony was worthwhile. No doubt arguments over details of his testimony will ensue today, with Nel cross examining on details in his usual slow, repetitive style. The 2 week vacation has been granted, so nobody will be in a screaming hurry to do anything.



I agree. It explained a couple of key points for the defense.

And yes of course it's appropriate for Nel to question his expertise.
 
I doubt they think it was a complete waste. There was some significant and credible information given

That's interesting because you were ready to throw out everything Mrs. Burger said, because of the error in her police statement. The one which she herself went to correct the next day.

And this geologist testified to many things way outside of his expertise, and also to things which he never witnessed, nor even touched himself. He testified to experiments he did not take part in, and to things he never made a report on. And you state that the judge should find some of his testimony significant and credible? :wave:
 
How can any testimony given by an "expert" be credible when it is proven that "expert" is nothing more than an average joe giving his opinion?


Uh -- he's not an average joe? He's the equivalent of Vermuelen, only more qualified.

What's not credible about hearing gunshots and cricket bats at different distances? What's not credible about kick marks on the door and varnish and splinters on a sock?
 
That's interesting because you were ready to throw out everything Mrs. Burger said, because of the error in her police statement. The one which she herself went to correct the next day.

And this geologist testified to many things way outside of his expertise, and also to things which he never witnessed, nor even touched himself. He testified to experiments he did not take part in, and to things he never made a report on. And you state that the judge should find some of his testimony significant and credible? :wave:


Never said I wanted to throw out Burger's whole testimony. You're hallucinating :)
 
Never said I wanted to throw out Burger's whole testimony. You're hallucinating :)

IIRC, you called her an outright liar, and thus you could not accept any of her testimony. I am pretty sure that was your stance.

eta: I only remember this because we asked you if you would take a similar position of future defense witnesses...
 
Uh -- he's not an average joe? He's the equivalent of Vermuelen, only more qualified.

What's not credible about hearing gunshots and cricket bats at different distances? What's not credible about kick marks on the door and varnish and splinters on a sock?

No, he is a geologist. His expertise is in geology. Has his entire testimony been watched? Including the cross by Nel?

The gun test, yea Mr. Dixon wasn't there. The kick marks on the door, he didn't test anything other than the fibers on the pros. legs foot and the fibers from the door. He didn't test to see if those fibers could have come from something other than a sock.

Now if there was soil to be examined or some rocks, then yes he was perfect for the task at hand. The other stuff that he "expertly" testified to? Not even close. At one point, while testifying about ballistics, Mr. Dixon actually stated that he is NOT a ballistics expert.
 
IIRC, you called her an outright liar, and thus you could not accept any of her testimony. I am pretty sure that was your stance.


Nope that's not my stance. I think most of Burgers testimony is credible and should be considered.
 
IIRC, you called her an outright liar, and thus you could not accept any of her testimony. I am pretty sure that was your stance.

Yes, you do recall correctly. But then Mrs. Stipp's testimony was especially damning to OP and his defense.

MOO

ETA: It was Mrs. Stipp that changed something the next day. Not Mrs. Burger. Remember that if the correct name is not supplied then one can deny completely and technically be correct.
 
IIRC, you called her an outright liar, and thus you could not accept any of her testimony. I am pretty sure that was your stance.

eta: I only remember this because we asked you if you would take a similar position of future defense witnesses...

I think you may be referring to Mrs Stipp's ?
 
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