Trial Discussion Thread #28 - 14.04.17, Day 25

[Mr Fossil]

You left out from your transcript that Nel was specifically referring to a "kick mark" and not a cricket bat mark

Sorry, I've just listened to this again and you are not correct. He starts by asking about the first mark on the frame of the door (quite high up, pointed to by the laser pen), to which the reply is as given, then goes on to talk about the "kick mark". Two separate questions.

 

[liesbeth]

You left out from your transcript that Nel was specifically referring to a "kick mark" and not a cricket bat mark

No. Vermeulen used a laser pointer and pointed at the mark above the door handle and to the right. It was one of the marks identified earlier by Vermeulen as a bat mark.


And you left this bit out of yours...


Nel: Now, Colonel, I took a specific note of an answer you gave yesterday to Adv. Roux pertaining to what happened first the shots or the bat. You said the bullet hole was there before the panel was broken?

Vermeulen: That's correct, my lady.

Nel: (Looking at the bat marks on the door) Can you say scientifically, if we take the first mark, if that was caused before the shots were fired?

Vermeulen: (Looks at the door for a few seconds.) My lady, scientifically I would not think that it would be possible to say whether that small mark..if I'm correct you're referring to that small mark there (points at door with laser to mark above door handle) on the side I would not be able to say that it was there before the shots were fired, no.

Nel: Then there was a long discussion this morning about the kicking. Do you know if the kicking happened before or after the shots?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-L668jFUvGY
Time on video: 12:50 - 13:50.

Vermeulen points to this mark:

Edit: Added photos and links, as well as Nel's very last sentence for clarity.

 

[Viper]

:banghead:

Why do you persist in misrepresenting Vermeulen's testimony?

BIB IMO It is because some here must hold on to that fallacy, they cannot accept the facts. It is that last false thread that prevents the complete collapse of their argument, so they must continue to misrepresent the entirety of Colonel Vermeulen's testimony. And to me it makes them look uninformed or unwilling to accept reality, pick one.

 

[soozieqtips]

Hey good people
Immediate thoughts after the end of that mind-altering witness testimony:

Rog was on much firmer ground at the end there. i.e. balancing gingerly on Oscar's spare prosthetic leg on a marshmallow tightrope. Over an active volcano.

Again.. Nel ends with a whimper. Where is this killer instinct? I thought the skill of a prosecutor was to make things stick, to get the timing right. To have the focus and impact right the way until the end, to drive home the advantage. To sense weakness and not let up and to leave the court with key thoughts embedded and the last persuasive word...

Oh yeah, he only has to persuade the judge, not a jury. Maybe it's fine then and I'm asking for too much.

I'm starting to get a little frustrated with Masipa's submissive approach. She needs to grow some.

Against all the odds, Rog rescued himself and managed to retain a minuscule shred of dignity. In the final judgement, he ended up accepting a lesser charge of professional suicide, worldwide ridicule, utter humiliation and abject misery. but just imagine how much worse it could have been...

Nothing from the defence side stuck. I don't believe that anything has stuck, yet.
They have an awful lot of work to do and need to create some compelling evidence to dispute the state's case or OP is in big trouble. IMO.

Anyway, thats me over and out for a while as I'm exhausted and need a long rest. I still have broken bones in my head and am hallucinating due to a chronic lack of sleep and too many strong painkillers. True story!

Shouldn't need 18 days skiving off but maybe a couple will help restore some sanity.

Have fun and please solve the case ASAP.

Shane, please tell everyone exactly how deep this one runs!! We need to know, get in that theory thread and leave a bomb.

X

PS I still miss Trooper

Hey. Don't be mean about Rog. Did you forget he's attended three whole postmortems in his life?

THREE I tell you!

BBM - something did stick. Varnish on OP's leg.

 

[Feynman]

I have to agree that Vermeulen was bumbling, not sure about dishonest but he didn't come across that well to me and didn't make a compelling argument for much at all. Dixon was much worse though IMO, straying a million miles from where he ought to have gone and trying to cover up false or misleading statements and very poor science and practice. They have published work together regarding environmental pollution etc. maybe they should have stuck to that area in their careers.

They've expanded to courtroom pollution.

 

[Emz73]

All three pathologists (Saayman and Perumal whose report agreed with Saayman, as well as Botha) agreed that Reeva's wounds were very serious. She could not have lived very long after the shots. Saayman said she died after a few breaths.

According to Oscar, Dr. Stipp and Van der Nest (bloodspatter expert) Reeva died at (or very near) the bottom of the stairs. And Baba was in the garden and phoned Pistorius at 03:22 after which the Standers arrived and OP carried Reeva down the stairs.

So which scenario is believable? Shots at about 03:00 and Reeva dying sometime after 03:22? Or shots at about 03:17 and Reeva dying sometime after 03:22?

^
^
THIS. Its obvious really when you stop thinking so hard about it.

 

[Cherwell]

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Wednesday 12 March 2014, Session 2 - YouTube



Oscar Pistorius Trial: Thursday 13 March 2014 Session 2 - YouTube

Thank you. I trust you have read the unboldened bits as well.

 

[Cherwell]

I don't know squat about SA law, but shouldn't he get in trouble for talking about the trial while it's still going on? I think here in America, there'd be firestorm over his comments like that on social media as the trial is in process (perhaps not after a verdict was reached, but certainly prior to it). And at the very least, his reputation would be destroyed and he'd never be allowed near a courtroom again (in essence, fired).

What a dumb***. I know most people already thought that on here (and some of the funny posts about him are truly knee-slappers) but this kind of behavior on social media really shows how unprofessional he truly is. Yuck.

Here again I think it may differ because there is no jury involved. The judge can be trusted not to be swayed by tattle in the media and on the likes of FB and twitter.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I don't think he refused - I think the defense decided not to call him.

Either way, he wasn't going to testify favorably for Oscars version! That much we can surmise. Imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Britlaws]

That's exactly what I worry about, his state of mind at the present moment, but the sentencing is my problem, that's why I think he's got all his bases covered. Should he be convicted then will they put him in the jail or will his team get him out of that

I edited my reply post to include:

He's not going to walk! The SA taxpayers don't pay for 3 years of legal extradition costs and private planes to bring one alleged wife killer to stand trial in SA (Shrien Dewani), to see another walk away after being convicted.

 

[jassy writer]

As far as I can tell it is very recent news that Perumal will not testify. It broke in the media only today.

A fellow pathologist has ventured the opinion that he refused to testify because he was unwilling to "amend his version" and twist the truth to suit the defense. His colleague applauded his decision for professional and ethical reasons.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/O...t-hired-by-Oscar-wont-testify-report-20140417

 

[minor4th]

Sorry, I've just listened to this again and you are not correct. He starts by asking about the first mark on the frame of the door (quite high up, pointed to by the laser pen), to which the reply is as given, then goes on to talk about the "kick mark". Two separate questions.

I just watched it again and I don't see how you can conclude that he's talking about two different marks. It seems like he's talking about the one mark on the side that he pointed to with the lazer. And then Nel said "if that's a kick mark" - I assume he's talking about the same mark. No?

 

[minor4th]

Either way, he wasn't going to testify favorably for Oscars version! That much we can surmise. Imo


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed.

 

[soozieqtips]

That's exactly what I worry about, his state of mind at the present moment, but the sentencing is my problem, that's why I think he's got all his bases covered. Should he be convicted then will they put him in the jail or will his team get him out of that

BBM - his state of mind hasn't been normal for a long long time. At least in jail, he'll have time to meditate, read the Bible, have some 'me me me' time, reflect upon the error of his ways, watch "Liar Liar" and "Dude, Where's My Gun?". Really, jail will be good for him. Spiritual. And as a bonus, no more women will be shot to death by him for taking a pee.

 

[minor4th]

Thank you. I trust you have read the unboldened bits as well.

I have.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

What I took away from it:

If her arm was extended, she was locking the door.

Looks like he was kicking and banging on the door before the shooting and finally broke it open after the shots.

He didn't carry the gun back and forth to the bedroom. He left it right there on the floor after firing it and picked up the bat.

Could this be:

1 shot, Reeva screaming
2 cricket bat, Reeva screaming

pause

3 more shots, Reeva screaming, then the end

Don't know whether logical with screaming, if this way.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
As you I think, he never had only gun or only cricket bat in the bathroom, but both gun and bat (and had not to run between the rooms).
I think, he was on his prothetics the most time/all time.
Maybe he knelt sometimes to act as on stumps.

 

[Emz73]

No, they didn't put up the whole transcript. They put up selections to support their argument.

I agree it's getting silly, with all the contortions about one gunshot then cricket bat then the remaining three gunshots. That's not the state's case at all; it's a message board theory that is unsupported by any evidence or any witness testimony.

Vermuelen said the gunshots were "before the cricket bat hit the door" <---those were his exact words.

Mangena said that all 4 shots happened at the same time in quick succession. So that does away with the theory that there was one gunshot and then cricket bat hitting the door and then additional gunshots or whatever that theory is.

So she lay dying for 20 minutes? Or are the Stipps lying about hearing shots at 3?

You are saying our theories here are all fabricated? Not based on evidence or witnesses? Why bother coming here then?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Off topic here but have just been wondering who else the defence are likely to bring as witnesses
Ballistics
1or 2 closer neighbours
Both Standers
Psychologist
Can Op bring in friends for general character witness testimony ?
I am guessing close neighbours could be the most use to him .
What is everyone else's thoughts on others as I have read different reports of between 13 and 17 witnesses in total

 

[Suthrnqt]

Marking my spot....

 

[Mr Fossil]

If the first shot occurred at the earlier time and was followed by the three bat strikes, that would account for the earlier sounds. Reeva is hit in the leg and falls, screaming at OP, and threatens to call the police. OP looks through a crack caused by the bat strikes to locate Reeva and then aims the second set of three shots. The crack that deviates through one of the bullet holes is then caused by OP ripping the panel out. It is after this that Dr Stipp hears OP screaming "help, help, hel"p (which makes more sense to me than OP's version which he says is after the first 'bangs'). JMO