Trial Discussion Thread #28 - 14.04.17, Day 25

[soozieqtips]

Threshold of pain is 120 decibels.

357 magnum is 164 decibels.

This is not a linear scale.

I would say 'deaf' for a while afterwards.

Shot is inside and echoing also.

Seconds? Minutes?

 

[jay-jay]

This confuses me because remember Nel saying to Oscar---she was standing facing the door and you were standing in front of her talking to her.

That would make sense if it was premeditated. He would go stand in front of the door and scream at her through the door, finally shoot directly into the door from the front, at whatever angle he pleases.

This position of OP negates that scene. It also shows he is staying as far away from the door as possible so he himself cannot be shot by the person inside the closet while he's standing there.

How does it negate it? If it was premeditated (the planning of which only needed to be minutes or seconds in advance) then that would be exactly how it would've happened .. and my view is that it was premeditated (even by minutes or seconds).

 

[TipDog]

I saw that yesterday (just about to watch today's one) and yeah, he said OP would still have been able to hear Reeva because he wouldn't have been totally deaf. Think OP has been visiting WS and read the posts about how the shots would have made him deaf??? :floorlaugh:

Funny that in his affidavit, he wasn't deaf after he shot... AND also missing was the 'I screamed like I never heard myself scream before'. Hey, maybe Roger Dixon was here too after he'd finished looking for noises online...

Yeah, funny that. He also added that he was screaming the whole time he was shooting, although he couldn't hear himself - which was also missing from his affi.

As for him being deafened, I've never bought that. Regardless of which version you wish to believe, it is certain that adrenaline was pumping though his body (fear and anger both produce it). And one of the symptoms of adrenaline is dramatically heightened senses, including hearing:

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/fitness/body-building/5-symptoms-of-an-adrenaline-rush.html#b

 

[molly333]

Seconds? Minutes?

I'd just be guessing.

Imagine standing next to a jet engine taking off.

Then triple it.

It might be also why he didn't use the telephone for a while.

 

[Val1]

It pretty much proves that one of the two sets sounds heard by the Stipps was the cricket bat hitting the door though. And experts from both sides testified that the gunshots were before the cricket bat hit the door.

It's an important point - as there is no evidence of anything else making a sound like gunshots that night.

Here are the official videos from sabc.

Start at about 48:00 Session 1 for id of the two bat marks, one of which created the initial opening above the handle.
Session 1:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKK3vA9XpQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKK3vA9XpQ

Session 2:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGKRZIuBxLc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGKRZIuBxLc

Session 3 at 2:25-2:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXoq6...id=P-14bhKWdfY

the witness clearly states that:
"That specific crack yes, it was after the firing of the bullets took place."

Iow's, the two previously identifed marks in Session 1 could have come before the bullets.

I took that whole bit to mean that the panels having been broken out could only have come after the bullet holes, but the two initial bat strikes could have come before the bullet holes.

 

[jay-jay]

Threshold of pain is 120 decibels.

357 magnum is 164 decibels.

This is not a linear scale.

I would say 'deaf' for a while afterwards.

Shot is inside and echoing also.

Couldn't have been that bad if he shot four times then .. I would've stopped at one if it blasted my ear drums that much.

 

[molly333]

How does it negate it? If it was premeditated (the planning of which only needed to be minutes or seconds in advance) then that would be exactly how it would've happened .. and my view is that it was premeditated (even by minutes or seconds).

It negates it because she is no threat to him inside the closet.

He can go stand right in front of the closet and shoot her.

The only reason to stand way off to the side of the closet is because you are afraid the person inside might shoot you if you stand in front.

 

[Mr Ron]

Your imagined scenario doesn't work for me because if he is going to deliberately shoot her, he does not want to miss.

Deliberate shooting--stand in front of the closet, get her to talk, shoot in direction of her voice.

Fair enough. An alternative scenario (I don't necessarily agree with it I'm just trying them out)

If I imagine myself as an attacker in the situation you describe I suspect I would step back and give myself a bit of space before I shot. I think I might also step to the side in order to allow my bullets to cover the greater extent of the toilet should she try and avoid my shots.

 

[katydid23]

I'm not aware that Mr Dixon ever said that he used someone the same height as OP? In any case, I think it can be concluded from the pictures (despite the 10cm difference) that it would be extremely unlikely that anyone would have been able to see a man on stumps in the top half of the window, don't you?

They did at least make an attempt to show this to the judge. Again the PT elected not to show any information to the contrary. The judge may well prefer this to the alternative of nothing.

I could spend quite a while discussing the evidence that the SAPS and PT have purposely not included because it weakens their case. I won't though, as it doesn't surprise me and is only to be expected.

If the man doing the re-enactment, was not supposed to be OP, what was the point of the recreation? That was very misleading, whether they said he was the same height or not. It was implied that he was, imo. And IIRC, Roux even said they were going to offer evidence showing he could not be seen. So that was very shady and deceitful, imo.

And I do not know if anyone could have seen a man on his stumps or not. That was supposedly what the reenactment was all about. Besides, I am not 100% certain that he was on his stumps at that point.

I would rather the PT showed nothing, as opposed to them showing misleading, shady pictures and false testimony.

 

[molly333]

Couldn't have been that bad if he shot four times then .. I would've stopped at one if it blasted my ear drums that much.

It's an interesting question. He might not have realized he was even shooting at that point. The blast might be the reason for the pause, too.

 

[jay-jay]

Your imagined scenario doesn't work for me because if he is going to deliberately shoot her, he does not want to miss.

Deliberate shooting--stand in front of the closet, get her to talk, shoot in direction of her voice.

In which case he would be 'done' for her murder with absolute certainty. By using the intruder story, he shoots from a position where it would look like he was shooting an intruder and therefore corroborates his intruder story.

 

[soozieqtips]

Yeah, funny that. He also added that he was screaming the whole time he was shooting, although he couldn't hear himself - which was also missing from his affi.

As for him being deafened, I've never bought that. Regardless of which version you wish to believe, it is certain that adrenaline was pumping though his body (fear and anger both produce it). And one of the symptoms of adrenaline is dramatically heightened senses, including hearing:

http://www.fitday.com/fitness-articles/fitness/body-building/5-symptoms-of-an-adrenaline-rush.html#b

BBM - Oh god, that's like when he insisted that no one could possibly have heard Reeva screaming, because 'no woman screamed that night'!! But he was allegedly deaf, so he couldn't know if she screamed or not.

 

[james83]

This confuses me because remember Nel saying to Oscar---she was standing facing the door and you were standing in front of her talking to her.

That would make sense if it was premeditated. He would go stand in front of the door and scream at her through the door, finally shoot directly into the door from the front, at whatever angle he pleases.

This position of OP negates that scene. It also shows he is staying as far away from the door as possible so he himself cannot be shot by the person inside the closet while he's standing there.

Do you think angry people with guns think about their position when they totally lose it and start firing?.

 

[patCee]

Here are the official videos from sabc.

Start at about 48:00 Session 1 for id of the two bat marks, one of which created the initial opening above the handle.
Session 1:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKK3vA9XpQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiKK3vA9XpQ

Session 2:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGKRZIuBxLc"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGKRZIuBxLc

Session 3 at 2:25-2:40
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXoq6...id=P-14bhKWdfY

the witness clearly states that:
"That specific crack yes, it was after the firing of the bullets took place."

Iow's, the two previously identifed marks in Session 1 could have come before the bullets.

I took that whole bit to mean that the panels having been broken out could only have come after the bullet holes, but the two initial bat strikes could have come before the bullet holes.

Vermuelan said that he could only be sure about one bat strike coming after the bullet hole. He said the crack made by the bat had stopped when it reached the bullet hole. His view was that if the bullet hole hadn't been there the crack would have carried on. I do wonder about the other one though.

 

[molly333]

Fair enough. An alternative scenario (I don't necessarily agree with it I'm just trying them out)

If I imagine myself as an attacker in the situation you describe I suspect I would step back and give myself a bit of space before I shot. I think I might also step to the side in order to allow my bullets to cover the greater extent of the toilet should she try and avoid my shots.

Maybe. But you would be starting from the front of the door.

So would you then step way off to the side by the bathroom entrance?

This would limit your angle of shots. And, no reason to do it, either.

There were a few places in that bathroom where she would have been protected.

 

[james83]

It's an interesting question. He might not have realized he was even shooting at that point. The blast might be the reason for the pause, too.

LOL, didn't realise he was shooting, that Oscar speak is contagious.

 

[soozieqtips]

I'd just be guessing.

Imagine standing next to a jet engine taking off.

Then triple it.

It might be also why he didn't use the telephone for a while.

No. I think he would definitely have mentioned that as a reason, and he didn't.

 

[jay-jay]

I'd just be guessing.

Imagine standing next to a jet engine taking off.

Then triple it.

It might be also why he didn't use the telephone for a while.

You can't make the comparison with a jet engine taking off because that type of loud noise goes on for several seconds, whereas a gun shot is a short sharp noise.

 

[molly333]

Do you think angry people with guns think about their position when they totally lose it and start firing?.

No I don't. That's why I don't think he would be over by the entrance to the bathroom.

The person standing over by the entrance to the bathroom was scared. :scared:

not angry.

 

[katydid23]

This confuses me because remember Nel saying to Oscar---she was standing facing the door and you were standing in front of her talking to her.

That would make sense if it was premeditated. He would go stand in front of the door and scream at her through the door, finally shoot directly into the door from the front, at whatever angle he pleases.

This position of OP negates that scene. It also shows he is staying as far away from the door as possible so he himself cannot be shot by the person inside the closet while he's standing there.

Not necessarily. He needed to lean against the wall for balance. He did so, at a slight angle to the door. That guarantees he can get bullets to the corner, in case she seeks to huddle for cover.

He also probably knew he had to use the intruder defense, before he shot her.