Trial Discussion Thread #29

[Gbtaketwo]

Wonder why on earth Nel hasn't touched on this metal plate?

He could still mention it as the picture was placed into evidence but as the forensic guys were unable to conclusively say what exactly caused it maybe he will leave it ?
Unless I am wrong about the opinion of the forensics on this ?

 

[TorisMom003]

I was wondering about this too.
But I guess bearing in mind it is televised he could have been watching at home .
I will be interested in what The Standers have to say but would struggle to give their testimony too much weight because they are not really independent .

Especially since he and his daughter (mainly her) could be seen as having compromised the crime scene. I think his testimony is going to be tailored so as not to get the two of them into legal trouble themselves. However I will be interested in hearing exactly what he says OP said to him in that phone call. So far we have OP saying he told Stander to phone an ambulance and then OP changed that to needing Stander to help him carry Reeva to the car to take her to hospital, before he even called Netcare.

MOO

 

[soozieqtips]

OP was in the passageway when he heard the door slam, is that right? So Reeva can only have been a second or two ahead of him. The timeline seems so wrong. She'd have only just got out of bed while he was getting his gun, and been walking down the passage to the toilet when he started screaming? That's a very tight timeline, and so improbable, it cannot be reasonably possibly true - am I right???

 

[Gbtaketwo]

Especially since he and his daughter (mainly her) could be seen as having compromised the crime scene. I think his testimony is going to be tailored so as not to get the two of them into legal trouble themselves. However I will be interested in hearing exactly what he says OP said to him in that phone call. So far we have OP saying he told Stander to phone an ambulance and then OP changed that to needing Stander to help him carry Reeva to the car to take her to hospital, before he even called Netcare.

MOO

Yes that is a good point . Wonder what they will say about the missing phone when asked because if I remember rightly Clarice was making phone calls form his phone and then poof it disappeared for 2 weeks .

 

[delilah]

Nel did ask OP but he said maybe to light up the passage, but I think she was intending to call the police as OP said at one point to Reeva 'why are you calling the police' IIRC, sure I will be corrected if I'm wrong

Yes but Nel didn't hammer home the point of why the prosecution might think she took it ie to call for help. I was expecting Nel to say 'Let uss deeeeel wuf that, meester peestorrrrrrriusssss! Is eet reeesonably posssseebly truuuu that she wud take her phone to de toilet at three am - ahnser de question!'

I have listened to Nel so much over the last few weeks I've even started thinking in an Afrikaans ahksint!

 

[james83]

I can't be the only person who hears the simpsons theme start to play in my head everytime i read the word's "The Standers".

 

[delilah]

OP was in the passageway when he heard the door slam, is that right? So Reeva can only have been a second or two ahead of him. The timeline seems so wrong. She'd have only just got out of bed while he was getting his gun, and been walking down the passage to the toilet when he started screaming? That's a very tight timeline, and so improbable, it cannot possibly be reasonably true - am I right???

We don't know how long RS may have been in the toilet before she 'slammed' the toilet door. Defence may argue she had time to pee then shut the door when OP started screaming. Hence OP building in all the faffing with the fans and the jeans, to give her time. Still hogwash though, IMO.

 

[delilah]

I honestly don't think it's unusual. And I'm even doubting if she DID have the phone. But if she did - I use mine to avoid turning on bright lights in the night. Also, she was very much into social media and had tweeted earlier,so could have just wanted to look at Twitter or Facebook.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

It was pitch black and OP was awake so no reason not to switch on a light.

 

[delilah]

I lost the plot during OPs testimony ref the magazine rack. Why was he so insistent about it having moved between the time he pulled RS out of the toilet and the police photos being taken? Why did it matter, esp as Dixon's evidence subsequently contradicted OP's on that point?

 

[Gbtaketwo]

It was pitch black and OP was awake so no reason not to switch on a light.

Yes I think this puzzles us all especially when she should have known the light in the loo was broken ( assuming that is the case )
Reeva was a model she wakes up in the early hours of her first Valentines day with her boyfriend after writing a card to say I love you ,don't you think she would want to take the opportunity to freshen up and look her best I certainly would have.

 

[wb180]

I understand that most people would not react in a similar way to OP, but I also believe that sometimes the truth really IS stranger than fiction. How often do you hear people say "you couldn't make it up" That's probably why I stopped reading fiction years ago, I always feel it is too far fetched. We will never know what actually happened that night, it is very frustrating.

Blame it on OP for telling lies on the stand.

 

[BlueShoe]

Snipped

I don't understand the phone thing either. Why take yr mobile with you to the loo at 3am? It does OP no good to say she did - the story about her possibly using it to light the way only got him into more trouble with Nel. But I was surprised Nel didn't ask him why she would have taken the phone with her (unless he did and I missed it?)

Maybe this was one version of an earlier possible Oscar-scene. If he had admitted to the bathroom light being on, and if the toilet light really was broken, and if someone (neighbors) saw a dim light in the toilet, he could then say that was due to Reeva's phone? But it doesn't make much sense in his current version, so really don't know. He may just have so many versions that he is mixing them up?:moo:

ETA: If the dim light was actually from the small sliver of door that he broke off and could see through.

 

[DebinGA]

I lost the plot during OPs testimony ref the magazine rack. Why was he so insistent about it having moved between the time he pulled RS out of the toilet and the police photos being taken? Why did it matter, esp as Dixon's evidence subsequently contradicted OP's on that point?

Just guessing ... OP needed a reason for calling Stander first and not NetCare. His excuse was that he couldn't pick Reeva up by himself ... yet managed just fine minutes later. PT and Dixon agree that Reeva's lower body was raised above the floor on top of the magazine rack. OP claimed he found her sitting crumpled on the floor, mag rack knocked away. Much harder for OP to pick her up if so, but it wasn't so.

 

[TrueDetective]

Here is what I believe created the first set of bangs at 3:00:

1) Reeva makes it to the WC and slams the door, quickly locking it.
2) Oscar was immediately behind her and hits the door twice with the bat. He was obviously trying to scare her with the forceful blows to the door and the loud noise that it created inside the WC.
3) Oscar then hits the bathtub plate expressing pure anger and frustration.

I believe all of that happened in very quick succession.

That the two argued more, that Reeva cried and screamed for someone to help, and that it went on for 17 minutes without Reeva using her phone does not make sense to me, unless she did not have her phone. Either her phone's battery was dead or OP had her phone. I can imagine Reeva trying to calm OP and defuse his anger by talking to him through the door. But when she started screaming for help that indicates to me that she had given up on getting out of there without someone coming to her aid.

Spot on IMO vipes.
this is the scenario I have felt strongly is the closest to the truth all along.. It's the one that makes the most logical sense and fits with the limited evidence.
It was likely preceded by an hour of arguments and the damage to the bedroom door which Reeva managed to lock him out of temporarily.

 

[delilah]

Yes I think this puzzles us all especially when she should have known the light in the loo was broken ( assuming that is the case )
Reeva was a model she wakes up in the early hours of her first Valentines day with her boyfriend after writing a card to say I love you ,don't you think she would want to take the opportunity to freshen up and look her best I certainly would have.

Hmmm I can't imagine ever getting up at 3 am to 'freshen up' for a man, just like I wouldn't ever expect him to do that for me LOL

 

[weeeva]

What a reasonable person believes....There's the rub. I live in an American city that routinely ranks in the top 10 for number of murders and violent crime. Home invasions during the day are fairly common in my neighborhood, as are break ins, car thefts, etc. Police sirens and strobe lights from police helicopters chasing down thugs are also routine. (BTW, I live in a middle class neighborhood mostly populated with academics, attorneys, and political progressives).

Because of where I live I can believe and accept that OP feared intruders, regardless of his gated community and security systems. His fear is made more believable by the fact that he has a history of hearing sounds in his house and leaping to the conclusion the sounds were made by intruders.

IMO, if he wanted to spin the best possible lie, he would have said that Reeva did not wake up when he got up to bring fans in, etc. Having her be asleep would make it more believable that he thought she was still in the bedroom when he heard a noise in the bathroom.

Jumping from point to point, but they are all linked.... I don't think OP was especially in love with Reeva. I think that they may well have argued that night, and that in any case there was little genuine intimacy that night that bound them together. That matters, because I think emotional detachment readily explains how it could be that OP heard a noise in the bathroom and zeroed in on the perceived threat without reassuring Reeva or making contact with her.

Shooting into a closed door. I no longer believe OP thought Reeva was behind that door, nor do I believe OP that he shot to protect Reeva. I think that OP freaked and that shooting a gun in response came naturally to him. In OP's mind the threat was real and immediate and shooting at it was reasonable.

OP didn't treat Reeva well, IMO. But it is equally true that there is no evidence whatsoever that he was physically abusive to Reeva or to any other woman he was ever involved with. He had everything to lose and nothing to gain by hurting Reeva, and no pattern of behavior that would indicate an escalation to extreme violence, much less murder.

He screamed for help minutes after shots were fired, and called for help as well. Not the actions of a man trying to hide anything at the time.

His unwillingness to accept full responsibility for killing Reeva may do him in. However revolting that unwillingness is, though, doesn't mean he is guilty of premeditated murder.

Excellent post Hope. I don't think OP had the time or presence of mind to think how he was going to cover things up. Especially in the frame of mind he was in at the time, and the eye witness accounts of his emotional state.
I believe that it was himself he was worried about when he ventured into the bathroom and Reeva would have been an afterthought, but he can't say that in court can he? Something else struck me from the very beginning and I have never mentioned it before because it is difficult to put into words the feeling I have about it. It was the witness account of how OP was pleading with god to let Reeva live, and trying to make a bargain with god by promising to be a good person etc. (I can't remember exactly what he said), if he would let Reeva live.
This strikes me as real. I don't know if anyone else on here has tried to bargain with god in times of great worry or grief. I have, more than once, and to me, that heart rending plea coming from a person's mouth is real. I know many will say that he was just pleading to be saved from jail, but it strikes me as being genuine.

 

[crasshopper]

Key Word: SPECULATE

Who asks an expert witness to speculate?

ans: Someone who doesn't have evidence.

To be fair Roux asked witnesses and the judge to speculate that Oscar screams like a woman...

 

[Viper]

We don't know how long RS may have been in the toilet before she 'slammed' the toilet door. Defence may argue she had time to pee then shut the door when OP started screaming. Hence OP building in all the faffing with the fans and the jeans, to give her time. Still hogwash though, IMO.

BIB. I don't think they can. The window sliding open is what set OP in to commando mode. If OP and Reeva had just spoken in bed, then Reeva had to have opened the window when she entered the bathroom. So at that exact moment the clock starts to countdown - OP arms himself and slowly approaches the intruder and arrives in the bathroom and fired four shots; trouble is that in that same short time Reeva would have to move from the bathroom window that she had just opened, go in to the WC, empty her bladder, finish up, pull up her shorts, slam the door and lock the door. There just is not enough time for OPs story to be true.

 

[delilah]

Just guessing ... OP needed a reason for calling Stander first and not NetCare. His excuse was that he couldn't pick Reeva up by himself ... yet managed just fine minutes later. PT and Dixon agree that Reeva's lower body was raised above the floor on top of the magazine rack. OP claimed he found her sitting crumpled on the floor, mag rack knocked away. Much harder for OP to pick her up if so, but it wasn't so.

But didn't he phone stander AFTER he'd got her out of the toilet cubicle?

 

[TorisMom003]

But didn't he phone stander AFTER he'd got her out of the toilet cubicle?

According to OP, yes.

ETA: But the problem with that is, how long it took him before he actually got Reeva downstairs. The phone call to Stander was at 3:19. Netcare at 3:20. OP should have immediately had Reeva in his arms and going down the stairs as soon as the call with Netcare ended. He claims he went downstairs, unlocked the front door, went back upstairs and picked up Reeva. Stander arrived approx. 5 mins after his phone call from OP. So what was OP doing during those 5 mins to be just coming down the stairs with Reeva when Stander showed up?