Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[Carol70]

Thanks much, Carol.

Oh, I dunno, I might want to give a shout...you know...help your peeps out...crack the case...

But probably wouldn't even get on, because must be a million people calling in from close by, etc.

Not decided...

Lol, you could probably do a better job at cracking the case than our esteemed police force..go for it, you never know!!

Ps: warn me before hand thou so I can tune in!!

 

[Patagonia]

Why are you so sure these trolls knew them personally? Just because they said so? There's lots of information about OP and Reeva in the public domain that they could use to make it seem there was a personal connection, but to be honest, the vitriol against Reeva convinces me they didn't know her at all and simply have an obvious agenda. OP supporters is the most likely.

Some of those people on Twitter were clearly members of their inner circle (not the people from these comments, I don't know anything about who they are), if you would like to investigate for yourself, I can post their accounts if you would like, I don't know another way to be able to prove my opinion to you.. I'm just trying to explain what I came to conclude

I don't think the prosecution is going to take any notice of a bunch of psycho nutters posting hateful things about Reeva.

Maybe not them, but maybe the prosecution can find credible witnesses who can confirm that their relationship was not the way Oscar described it in his Affidavit. I know, I would, if I was Nel! Because I think it would be huge to be able to reverse the case the defense is presenting and undermine even more Oscar's credibility. It would then prove he is a liar, and it would also reveal a possible motive. That seems big to me, from the legal stand point.

You could have just posted the link to the site rather than post all those comments. Maybe you could edit your post?

I did post the link, but then I realized that people were only reading the articles and didn't seem to catch the comments, so I thought I had to, I said I was sorry if they were too disturbing for someone, I just found them to be very relevant to the case, that is all

About editing them, shortly after posting them, I received a private message from the moderator that my posts were already edited, due to them being against the rules, so they are already gone

 

[shane13]

I looked back through multiple courtroom reporters feeds and it seems witness Baba said he was at the gate at 2:55, then the guard on a bike reported he'd just heard shots "just after 3:00am" but it is not more specific than that. The witness Burger also stated she was awakened by screams just after 3:00am and witness Van der Merwe reported being awakened at 1:56am by loud talking that lasted roughly one hour before she heard shots. I think the most specific time that's been mentioned was when Roux noted an incoming call from Stipp to security at 3:15am. However, Stipp made more than one call, so I don't know if that was his first call.

Not sure if I'm allowed to post a specific reporter's Twitter handle in the forum, so I will DM you instead. I hope that's okay.

As always, all of the above is just my opinion.

Yes, thank you.
I would think a public reporter's twitter (esp. re this trial) would be OK, as I have seen that here. But since you raised the issue, I am not certain.
So thanks for PM

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

Can you explain about the 'hidden 5th phone' please? I only starting reading up on the case when the trial started so am still trying to get up to speed with all the information. This thread has been a goldmine of useful info. Thanks

Detective Botha said in the BH that 2 iphones and 2 Blackberries were found at the scene and none had been used to call the paramedics and the police. But there was the fifth phone which was sneaked out back door and being held in Roux's possession for a week .Roux said in the BH that Botha had not asked for another Pistorius's phone and Botha replied that OP had not told him abt this other phone .

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2013/feb/20/oscar-pistorius-bail-hearing-day-two-live-coverage

 

[Carol70]

I have tried to follow the trial this week but I have had a blackout, an outage and computer problems so I have missed things plus often found it very difficult to hear witnesses.

So I am confused about when the gunshots were heard.

One set about 2.54am and another set at 3.17am. I am surprised about this as I have always thought that the gunshots were fired just before 3am.


http://www.enca.com/south-africa/oscar-trial-focus-reevas-last-moments

So do we assume from this that the State thinks that the noises heard about 2.54am were from the cricket bat and the sounds heard at 3.17am were the gunshots? And the Defence thinks the opposite. I find this very confusing. I hope the ballistics experts are next on the witness stand.

Estelle, Baba reports he was at the guard house at 2.55 and the other guard arrived just PAST 3 to report he heard gunshots. How the state can claim their case that the gunshots that killed Reeva were fired at 3.17 when their own witness called the guard house at 3.15 to report gunshots? Not very clever. And the state is in no way contesting that the gun was fired BEFORE the bat was used.

 

[Carol70]

Thanks

1. Do you know when Robbie is on air?
2. Is he bigger than David O'Sullivan (listener # wise)? O'Sullivan does know OP.
3. Is he courteous with callers?
4, Is he intelligent?

TIA.

PS: Turn off the generators

Haha, we don't own one, this is Africa, we rough it and use candles!!
I have no idea Shane, I've never listened to his show but he is very popular so would imagine he is easy to talk to about current events. I don't know who David o Sullivan is

 

[wishIknewmore]

I believe OP used a 9mm Parabellum pistol to shoot Reeva. I have no knowledge of guns but does anyone here know someone or has shot one themselves?? Would be interesting to know how this gun fires, would it be easy to shot off rounds quickly or do you have to *advertiser censored* it each time ( haha, sorry for sounding ignorant but I am about these matters)...are they easy guns to shoot?

I'm not an expert but am pretty sure that a 9mm Parabellum is a semi-automatic weapon. It's one of the most widely used military handguns. It will therefore shoot multiple rounds off in quick succession without the need to *advertiser censored* it every time. It doesn't have a lot of recoil either. Don't know if they are easy to shoot but OP would certainly be familiar with it if he owns it and is known to go to the range.

While they can vary in verbiage, the top 4 world wide is as follows:
1.Assume all guns to be loaded
2. Control the muzzle–point guns in a safe direction.
3. Trigger Finger–keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
4. Target–be sure of your target and beyond. (Never point your firearm at something you do not intend to shoot. Make sure you positively identify what you are shooting at and know what lies in front of and beyond it.)

Obviously Oscar doesn't follow the traditional gun safety rules. We know he broke 3 of the 4.

 

[soozieqtips]

Some of those people on Twitter were clearly members of their inner circle (not the people from these comments, I don't know anything about who they are), if you would like to investigate for yourself, I can post their accounts if you would like, I don't know another way to be able to prove my opinion to you.. I'm just trying to explain what I came to conclude



Maybe not them, but maybe the prosecution can find credible witnesses who can confirm that their relationship was not the way Oscar described it in his Affidavit. I know, I would, if I was Nel! Because I think it would be huge to be able to reverse the case the defense is presenting and undermine even more Oscar's credibility. It would then prove he is a liar, and it would also reveal a possible motive. That seems big to me, from the legal stand point.



I did post the link, but then I realized that people were only reading the articles and didn't seem to catch the comments, so I thought I had to, I said I was sorry if they were too disturbing for someone, I just found them to be very relevant to the case, that is all

About editing them, shortly after posting them, I received a private message from the moderator that my posts were already edited, due to them being against the rules, so they are already gone

I think Reeva's friends, some of them anyway, will point to the relationship not quite being what OP painted it to be on the night of the shooting. In his affidavit he said: "We were deeply in love and I could not be happier. I know she felt the same way". That may or may not have been true, but if it wasn't, he's already put across the image that they were a close couple who loved each other deeply. I personally believe he had to say that so it would seem impossible for him to have done what he did on purpose.

 

[shane13]

Estelle, Baba reports he was at the guard house at 2.55 and the other guard arrived just PAST 3 to report he heard gunshots. How the state can claim their case that the gunshots that killed Reeva were fired at 3.17 when their own witness called the guard house at 3.15 to report gunshots? Not very clever. And the state is in no way contesting that the gun was fired BEFORE the bat was used.

Now you are beginning to see part of why I said 3 days ago or so, I don't go with both sides' versions. And don't think there may not be better versions, as I already posted a day ago or so.

But first please (re-)read my post on Gun shots and "Bat shots". Please do not go with what Roux has postulated (even if you now find Nel is off--w.o much thought first.
His track record is near zero so far. Maybe Nel will join him in the Oscar Pistorius case by the time this is done?
Nothing would surprise me in this world.

 

[Cherwell]

Sadly, I think I recall she wasn't a fully fledged lawyer yet, she still had to write her articles. Cherwell, are you also South African??

No, I am English, but I do have a close friend who is from South Africa.

 

[Carol70]

I'm not an expert but am pretty sure that a 9mm Parabellum is a semi-automatic weapon. It's one of the most widely used military handguns. It will therefore shoot multiple rounds off in quick succession without the need to *advertiser censored* it every time. It doesn't have a lot of recoil either. Don't know if they are easy to shoot but OP would certainly be familiar with it if he owns it and is known to go to the range.

While they can vary in verbiage, the top 4 world wide is as follows:
1.Assume all guns to be loaded
2. Control the muzzle–point guns in a safe direction.
3. Trigger Finger–keep your finger off the trigger until ready to fire.
4. Target–be sure of your target and beyond. (Never point your firearm at something you do not intend to shoot. Make sure you positively identify what you are shooting at and know what lies in front of and beyond it.)

Obviously Oscar doesn't follow the traditional gun safety rules. We know he broke 3 of the 4.

Thanks much.

So in essence, it could be safe to assume that Reeva literally didn't know what hit her when she was shot..if the gun fired rapidly, she could have already been dead before even realizing she had been shot??

 

[MURDERER_SERVANT]

We absolutely should write down a detailed timeline..
I'm way too confused LOL ullhair:

 

[Carol70]

No, I am English, but I do have a close friend who is from South Africa.

Ahhh ok, just wondered when you mentioned not ever hearing of Reeva. We actually do have a number of high profile models very popular in this country but more than likely unheard of in other countries Reeva was not one of them!

 

[kittychi]

Something we should all keep in mind is that Oscar gave his statement at the bail hearing before having any information about what the state's witnesses would say - also Shipp's statement to police was given before the bail hearing and before any other witnesses had given their accounts and before the media had reported on these events.

For those reasons, Shipp's statement should be given considerable weight IMO and Oscar cannot be said to have tailored his account to explain away witness accounts.

I don't believe for a moment that OP didn't know witnesses could hear him and Reeva. I think he (& his lawyers) did their best with his statement based on what was known at the time.

I wondered why Oscar would lay out all of his cards at the bail hearing, though. He filed a thorough affidavit to be able to get out on bail. To me that seems like a tactical error on the part of Defense, to make such a detailed statement so early so he could stay out of immediate jail. He could better have held some back and been able to tailor a better story once Defense got more information.

It seems he got what he wanted in the short term (stay out of jail), but his action at that time may result in jail for the longer term.

 

[Estelle]

I know we went round and round in the beginning about this but do we know for sure how many shots were fired?

According to http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/04/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial/index.html

Prosecutor Gerrie Nel, reading a report from an expert, told the court that of the four bullets that were fired toward Steenkamp: "The fourth bullet hit her in the head. She then died."

I ask this because I think that Roux is setting up a different defense that what we see right now. I'm not familiar with the courts in SA but this guy isn't an idiot. OP could hire the best of the best so all this bumbling around make me think that Roux is setting the groundwork for something else. Perhaps this whole theory around the bat is just a ruse or a diversion? Bear with me, I like to always think both sides through in any situation…

Perhaps Roux has intentionally locked witnesses into their story while all the time knowing it doesn't match up with the evidence. He's getting witnesses to focus on the 3 sounds and being adamant its not a bat but gunshots? If there were 4 shots, then doesn't this discount Stipp's testimony of 2 sets of 3 shots as in "bam, bam, bam"? Doesn't matter how far apart, one of them should have included 4 shots. Roux can then go on to say if Stipp was mistaken here, whats to say that the rest of his testimony is off as well?

If people don't buy that maybe he might even come back to say that the 1st shot woke Stipp up and then he heard the 2nd, 3rd and 4th shot? He then brings us back around to the stupid bat story for the last 3 noises. Now it all fits in a nice package since parts of Stipps testimony in question.

I think Roux is going to bring in experts that show that a man's voice will increase an octave when under duress. I think he will say the 1st screams heard that sounded like a woman's voice was OP yelling at Reeva or perhaps he was yelling at the burglars warning them to get out. He was in fear for his life so his voice was under duress and high pitched. The man's voice heard was him regaining his composer and yelling at the burglars before or during firing. This shows OP wasn't just in a wild state of panic. Anyway, the shots are fired and now OP starts really screaming like a girl in this wailing voce because he knows he just shot Reeva. He regains his composure in order to "save" Reeva so now he yells in his manly voice "Help! Help! Help" while rushing back to beat the door down with the bat. Now OP might be doing more of a primal scream ("argggghhhh") while he beating down the door. He stops with the last hit because he found the key. (Kind of like you would when you are doing self defense classes and you make these weird sounds when you are hitting the padded dude with the plastic bat? Ok, maybe girls only do that but you get the picture I might have the timeline wrong but you get the picture. Wouldn't this make Johnson and Burgers testimony fit with OP's? It sets a different stage once Stipp's out of the way.

Now I don't buy this rubbish for a second and realize there are holes in this version as well. I just think Roux hasn't shown his hand yet.

Now you are beginning to see part of why I said 3 days ago or so, I don't go with both sides' versions. And don't think there may not be better versions, as I already posted a day ago or so.

But first please (re-)read my post on Gun shots and "Bat shots". Please do not go with what Roux has postulated (even if you now find Nel is off--w.o much thought first.
His track record is near zero so far. Maybe Nel will join him in the Oscar Pistorius case by the time this is done?
Nothing would surprise me in this world.

Whose track records do you mean which is near zero, Shane?

As you have done the timeline before a few threads back, could you update it please?

If not, could you spell out what your theory is now?

I would have thought there could have been two volleys of shots echoing to sound like more.

Where does the cricket bat come into it? Was it in fact used at all?

 

[Carol70]

I don't believe for a moment that OP didn't know witnesses could hear him and Reeva. I think he (& his lawyers) did their best with his statement based on what was known at the time.

I wondered why Oscar would lay out all of his cards at the bail hearing, though. He filed a thorough affidavit to be able to get out on bail. To me that seems like a tactical error on the part of Defense, to make such a detailed statement so early so he could stay out of immediate jail. He could better have held some back and been able to tailor a better story once Defense got more information.

It seems he got what he wanted in the short term (stay out of jail), but his action at that time may result in jail for the longer term.

Lol Kitty, it is possible that OP gave a detailed and thorough affidavit simply because he thought he had nothing to hide and told everything as it happened to the best of his knowledge.

With that, I leave you all, have an awesome day/evening where ever you are in the world and catch up tomorrow!!

 

[shane13]

Whose track records do you mean which is near zero, Shane?

As you have done the timeline before a few threads back, could you update it please?

If not, could you spell out what your theory is now?

I would have thought there could have been two volleys of shots echoing to sound like more.

Where does the cricket bat come into it? Was it in fact used at all?

1. Roux.

I already made several posts in last couple of days spelling things out.
And I just cited one of them now on gun shots and 'bat shots". But also made clear (was it yesterday) about the 2 volleys of shots (from Dr. Stipp) could be gun shots, with first volley being 1 shot and 2 echoes, along with other possibilities.

It's all in my posts of last couple of days.
Update: Your penultimate sentence indicates you may have already read my post yesterday, and maybe forgot doing so.

 

[whiterum]

I think these were posted by trolls and OP supporters. Fairly sick I would say. I doubt there was any real truth there though I do think she was not someone to be pushed about. I feel quite sure she would not let OP ride roughshod over her.

Totally agree iB , my thoughts exactly !

 

[lisasalinger]

Estelle, Baba reports he was at the guard house at 2.55 and the other guard arrived just PAST 3 to report he heard gunshots. How the state can claim their case that the gunshots that killed Reeva were fired at 3.17 when their own witness called the guard house at 3.15 to report gunshots? Not very clever. And the state is in no way contesting that the gun was fired BEFORE the bat was used.

My guess here is that the State already has a theory as to what the earlier sounds are. Nel kind of brushed it away and said we will "deal" with that (discrepancies) later.

The only reason I can think of why he doesn't want to deal with it now is because he has other future witnesses or evidence to clear it up.

The State has to have some explanation for those earlier noises, they can't just brush it off knowing that people will testify to it. I think we just have to wait to see what they present.

I'm in full agreement with everybody that the timeline as far as bangs, gunshots, phone calls, etc is extremely confusing at this point.

 

[Estelle]

1. Roux.

I already made several posts in last couple of days spelling things out.
And I just cited one of them now on gun shots and 'bat shots". But also made clear (was it yesterday) about the 2 volleys of shots (from Dr. Stipp) could be gun shots, with first volley being 1 shot and 2 echoes, along with other possibilities.

It's all in my posts of last couple of days.

I do not remember reading about the one shot and two echoes but that is what I am now thinking too.

This is what I used to believe:

As the prosecution began setting out its case this morning, they claimed a witness heard 'two to three' shots, saw lights turn on, and then 17 minutes later heard 'two to three more shots.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...lengthy-gap-bursts-gunfire.html#ixzz2vPiSNvOI

Now I am wondering if it could be:

About 3.07am ONE SHOT - TWO ECHOES

10 MINUTES (I thought Dr Stipp said about 10 minutes)

This is where we surmised that OP phoned his brother and lawyer and started covering up PREMEDITATION?

3.17 THREE SHOTS

Was Reeva wounded with the first shot?