Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[katydid23]

The tweet was referred to in the first part of this thread, and again in an article I read online. Most people don't go on the offensive at the sound of a washing machine but he apparently does, according to his tweet. That suggest to me that OP thinks differently to me, so I can accept the possibility that his reactions upon hearing a noise in the bathroom during the night might differ to mine. My circumstances are also different.

Look, a lot of OP's behaviour doesn't make sense to me either if I try to understand it within the context of the way that I think and behave. However, with the information that I am reading and hearing about the way that OP behaves (which I guess reflects his thinking processes), then some of his account of that night could make sense. Maybe he left the window open because it would be difficult to access the balcony by climbing up the outside wall, maybe he locked the bedroom door because he believed that burglars would be more likely to enter by the ground floor so that made sense to him....even if it doesn't make sense to us. The point I am making is that just because it's not what I would do, or what you would do doesn't in itself necessarily mean that he's lying. There seems to be some evidence to suggest that he is reckless with firearms and gung-ho, a bit arrogant and aggressive, and possibly a bit paranoid....in that context his behaviour doesn't seem totally unbelievable to me.

BBM

I agree about that description. And if that is all true, then he deserves some jail time, for negligent manslaughter at least, imo.

But those same attributes: recklessness, aggressiveness, gung-ho impulsivity, arrogance, paranoia, ADDED to a rabid case of jealousy mixed with firearms, also make the state's case seem believable.

Even when my husband gets very angry, and we bicker, I never imagine he is going to shoot through a locked door at me in a fit of rage. But those attributes you listed above might make OP more likely to do just that in a jealous rage.

 

[Interested Bystander]

BBM

I'm not entirely sure on this sequence of events. I just finished listening to yesterday's testimony. I thought I understand it that Barber (Baba or whatever) was outside of Oscar's house when the Standers arrived. They raced past the guards and Mrs. Stander went in to the house, Mr. Stander stood in the doorway either with his dad or his daughter (couldn't understand that). Barber was standing there outside in a bit of shock when he saw Oscar carrying Reeva down the stairs. At this point, Mr. Stander tells Barber to go call police and an ambulance. I don't think Dr. Stipp had arrived just yet. But I could be wrong.

That is what I heard in the proceedings. Stander ordered Baba to make the calls NOT that Stander made the calls.

I have since listened to Stipp's evidence again and he says he asked Stander to make the emergency call. Stander dialled Netcare and passed the phone to Dr Stipp who proceeded to organise the ambulance. This is not in agreement with Babs's testimony when he said Stander ordered him to call an ambulance. This could throw Baba's evidence into doubt.

 

[katydid23]

BBM

I agree, I remember that from Stipp's testimony too. Maybe Barber is confused about when exactly he was told to call. He did mention he was standing there in shock for a little bit.

This is seriously some of the worst articulation I've ever seen by lawyers. And every time Roux tries to reference reports, he has to pause and can't seem to find what he needs. It feels like they're winging it at times. I'm sure that's not the case but it feels really sloppy.

BBM

I feel like he is purposely trying to make things seem confusing and messy. He wants there to be inconsistent reporting and messy timelines, imo.

Confusion=Reasonable Doubt

 

[Interested Bystander]

Note: This is a work in progress... please add or make corrections...I could not locate a time for the entries marked with ???. I have added minor4th notes denoted with an asterisk


Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...1769/Oscar-Pistorius-Timeline-to-tragedy.html

February 14, 2013

6 p.m.- Reeva entered the complex alone in her Mini Cooper.
Pistorius entered the complex shortly thereafter. He was on his phone.

1:56 a.m.- neighbor Estelle van der Merwe:
“I woke up the morning at 1:56am to sounds of someone talking loudly and fighting,’’ she told the court. “It lasted about an hour.’’

http://www.news.com.au/world/africa...rrifying-screams/story-fnh81gzi-1226845099657

*2:00 a.m. - Werwe heard what sounded like a woman's voice on one side of an argument

2:20 a.m.- Baba stated in court that at 2.20 am everything seemed normal during a security check.

3:00a.m-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-bloodcurdling-screams-followed-by-shots.html

*3:00 - 3:15 a.m. -Stipp was woken up by 3 "shots" and got up and went to balcony to see where it was coming from

*3:00 - 3:17 a.m. - Stipp reports he heard a woman "screaming or yelling" 2 or 3 times

3:15a.m- Dr Stipp made a call at 3.15 am and spoke with Baba for 16 seconds. Stipp reported the shots and asked security to come and see where the shots were coming from.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*Burger and Johnson awoke to the sounds of loud screams they identified as coming from a female

*3:15- 3:16 a.m. - Burger and Johnson report they heard yelling "help, help, help"

3:16 a.m.-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/79d46...,-witness-phone-calls-under-scrutiny-20140306

*3:17 a.m. – Stipp heard "2 or 3" additional "shots"

*3:17 a.m. Burger and Johnson heard "3 or 4" sounds they believe to be gunshots

*After 3:17 a.m. - Werwe heard "loud crying" that she initially thought was a woman, but her husband identified the voice as Oscar Pistorius

????-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

[B]*3:20 a.m. - Oscar calls Netcare and reports that they advised him to take Reeva to the hospital and not wait for the ambulance[/B]

???- Baba spoke to Pistorius on the phone and Pistorius said, "Security, everything is fine".

3:24a.m.-

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

???-- Johan Stipp, a doctor who lived near Pistorius was the first to arrive at Pistorius home

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/world/africa/oscar-pistorius-trial-fifth-day/

???-

http://www.sabc.co.za/news/f1/439cc...ried-and-prayed-next-to-Reeva's-body-20140306

???- The estate manager Mr Stander arrived at Mr Pistorius's house with his daughter.

???- Baba didn't enter Pistorius's house because Stander was standing at door. Lights were on in the house. Baba left to call the police and paramedics.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

*3:28 a.m. Both Stander and Stipp are at Oscar's house; Stander calls ambulance from Stipp's phone

Other sources:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...rius-murder-trial-March-7-as-it-happened.html

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/ne...rrifying-screams/story-fni0xs63-1226845099657

This is not in the trial evidence. What is evidenced is that at 3.20 Oscar rang Baba but did not speak, only cried.

Correction: I have now listened to Dr Stipp's again and he states he asked Stander if he had phoned for an ambulance. Stander said "No, not yet". Dr Stipp rang a hospital (couldn't catch the name but began with a B, I think) but was told he would have to ring ER111. Mr Stander duly rang Netcare and handed the phone to Dr Stipp who organised the despatch of the ambulance.

This throws into doubt Baba's evidence that Stander ordered him to phone the ambulance.

 

[kittychi]

Well, let me clarify - he didn't tailor his account based on witness statements because he didn't have any yet. It's possible he thought about what happened and made up an account in anticipation to what witnesses might say.

I agree that it's very confusing the way they present evidence, intermingled with argument and commentary and "I put it to you" and so forth. Very frustrating indeed.

BBM: Even if he didn't have witness statements, we know that Dr. Stipp was to get a call from Oscar's lawyer yet that morning. Unless Dr. Stipp refused to talk to him, he likely got the equivalent to a witness statement.

IMO, Oscar and his lawyers were armed with just about everything they needed to know to make what they thought would be an airtight story. They got a bit hung up on the timing and forgot to add that, by the way, Oscar screams like a woman when he feels terror. :floorlaugh:

 

[Trooper]

yes. while Stipp is trying to ascertain Reevas condition ( dead , unfortunately ) he asks Standar 'has an ambulance been called?? police?. according to Stipp Standar says he has, but obviously what he means is, he has instructed Baba to do that..

He himself didn't do it.


The only clearheaded person in the hallway was Dr Stipp and he had 16 years training and a professional life there after to be clearheaded, notice details, be in the presence of death, which most of us don't get but once, if ever,

To me, it's why his evidence is so impacting.. Oscar didn't even remember telling the Doctor that he shot Reeva, thinking she was a burgler... it went clean out of his mind, which is why I doubt a lot of his claims, and explanations.. I cant take his overall statement as factual in every or hardly any respects. he had a traumatic experience, not that he was the victim. I never lose sight of who was, but his overall emotional and psychological state would have been in turmoil . Sure he's fired guns before, but I don't think he has ever seen the effect of gunfire on a human body. Its a whole lot different to the damage done to a tin target.

Whereas,. the witnesses who heard the voices screaming were not in any state of stress, or turmoil or anger or terror.. they were clearheaded.

 

[kittychi]

the order of arrival at the house is this..

STandar, and Mrs Standar, or Ms Standar

Baba by a whisker.. he actually arrives before Standar but is whizzed past by one STandar, at least, possibly both.

seconds later, enough time for Oscar to finish his walk down the stairs, because this is what Baba was confronted with, then Oscar lays her on the hallway tiles, then commences some sort of half arsed resuscitation procedure, then Stipp arrives to see Oscar with his fingers clenched between Reevas teeth, and his hand on her groin. Muttering and moaning.

Stipp then removes Oscars hands, and commences to ascertain life or death.

.

In other words, "she died in my arms."



.

 

[Trooper]

certainly concerned, but clearheaded in their concern. They followed the procedure laid down, call security.. Dr Stipp followed that and also followed his professional expertise responsibility and went RIGHT towards the gunfire and screaming location . mainly because he thought there maybe children involved.. a rational thought.. nothing outlandish in that..

 

[Interested Bystander]

I did read yesterday that both neighbors on his left and right will be called to testify. Roux has hinted that they heard "nothing" - if that's the case, that is just one more oddity in this case because you would think they would have at least heard gunshots or yelling.

Stipp indicated all the lights were on in one of OP's immediate neighbours. One wonders why they would be up at 3.15am in the morning with the lights on if they heard nothing. Roux seems to find it easy to refute anything he doesn't like that pops up in evidence. I am very pleased all the witnesses have not been swayed by his bullying. He must be a very frustrated guy at the moment.

 

[kittychi]

Mr Roux is in no position to make up a whole case, a complicated case out of thin air..

no lawyer can, or would. . in consultation with Oscar, the defendant, and his employer, he has to present to the court the bones and flesh of the case the State has made against Oscar, ( Rouxs employer) and dispute it. .. Any and all theory's, disputation of evidence given, alternative scenarious, are ALL and ENTIRELY the responsibility of Oscar.. its Oscars case.. it isnt Rouxs' case , he is merely the presenter. Roux walks away and on to his next employer ( client) the moment this case ends.

He is, in the vernacular, Oscars barking dog.. other wise Oscar would be up there barking. Why hire a barking dog and do the barking yourself? no one does. He barks , as is his profession, a very worthy one, under Oscars instruction.

Speaking of dogs, we haven't heard anything about any dogs present or barking. Oscar has or had two large dogs that could have made lots of noise, but no mention in his affi or by witnesses. I wonder where they were?

 

[Interested Bystander]

BBM

I agree, I remember that from Stipp's testimony too. Maybe Barber is confused about when exactly he was told to call. He did mention he was standing there in shock for a little bit.

This is seriously some of the worst articulation I've ever seen by lawyers. And every time Roux tries to reference reports, he has to pause and can't seem to find what he needs. It feels like they're winging it at times. I'm sure that's not the case but it feels really sloppy.

Stip only arrived when Reeva was already downstairs on the floor and Oscar was attending to her. Baba was there when Oscar was carrying her downstairs. Clearly Stipp arrived after Stander, his daughter, Baba and his guard. However, with all of them there at least one point in time when Stipp arrived he could have asked the question of all of them. I recall him asking Stander, his daughter and Baba but I am going to run through Stipp's oral evidence again.

I have since listened to Stipp's evidence again and he says he asked Stander to make the emergency call. Stander dialled Netcare and passed the phone to Dr Stipp who proceeded to organise the ambulance. This is not in agreement with Baba's testimony when he said Stander ordered him to call an ambulance. This could throw Baba's evidence into doubt.

 

[katydid23]

Speaking of dogs, we haven't heard anything about any dogs present or barking. Oscar has or had two large dogs that could have made lots of noise, but no mention in his affi or by witnesses. I wonder where they were?

I have not heard about them yet during the trial, but msm reported that the 2 dogs were running loose in the fenced yard. And if an intruder wanted to come in the bathroom window, they'd need to get past the 2 dogs.

I have wondered aloud why he assumed there was some intruder in the bathroom, if he didn't hear any barking. My German Shepherd would be going nuts, as any guard dog would.

I hope Nels discusses the two guard dogs at some point.


http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/lat...rius-trophies-were-strewn-all-over-death-flat


It has been revealed that his guard dogs were at home and there had been no *burglaries at the complex in Pretoria, South Africa, for more than two years.

Police are also investigating whether Reeva’s car had been moved.



Police have also confirmed that *Pistorius’ two dogs were in the yard of his home at the time he believed an *intruder had climbed in through his *toilet window using a workman’s ladder.

Officers are also keen to verify claims that Reeva’s Mini might have been moved after the shooting and that the doors were left open.

 

[Trooper]

Obviously, the dogs made a mistake, too.

 

[Trooper]

or the 2 dogs collaborated in doggy talk and decided to lay low and quiet, because, hey, that's what we do when we feel like doin it...

 

[soozieqtips]

Obviously, the dogs made a mistake, too.

Not really. They could have been trained to bark loudly in a female voice which would account for some of the female screaming witnesses 'imagined' they heard!

 

[Trooper]

and if someone heard 2 dogs barking, its a pound to a penny that will be Oscars rendition of dogbarking too.

 

[Jamtart]

BBM

I agree about that description. And if that is all true, then he deserves some jail time, for negligent manslaughter at least, imo.

But those same attributes: recklessness, aggressiveness, gung-ho impulsivity, arrogance, paranoia, ADDED to a rabid case of jealousy mixed with firearms, also make the state's case seem believable.

Even when my husband gets very angry, and we bicker, I never imagine he is going to shoot through a locked door at me in a fit of rage. But those attributes you listed above might make OP more likely to do just that in a jealous rage.

Excellent point and I agree, it could be interpreted to support either version of events. We have only heard a fraction of the evidence so far...once I have heard it all, I may be convinced one way or another. We don't yet know how it will unfold...but it's an interesting discussion

 

[kittychi]

This is one reason why I'm thinking Oscar's version is plausible. It may seem silly but Oscar doesn't seem to think like most people. Perhaps he has some sort of paranoid disorder like a personality disorder. Several stories suggest that every time he hears a noise or thinks he hears a noise he goes into a state of fearful hysteria and thinks there's an intruder in his home. Has he ever been robbed? Perhaps he has a sort of PTSD. Idk. Maybe his paranoia stretched over into his relationships, thus the fits of anger and yelling.

My theory: OP had a LOT of alcohol in his system which added to exaggerated behavior at every turn that evening.

Of course we will never know because IIRC, he wasn't taken to Medical until hours after first going to the police station.



.

 

[Trooper]

I have to find the energy to hang about for an hour and a half , when it will be 2.30 in the afternoon in South Africa.. its a cricket T2o match between my team and South Africa..but I reside in Sydney, and it will be 11.30pm Sunday night for me in my time zone. Can I do it?? only by making doggy jokes.......

 

[Interested Bystander]

and if someone heard 2 dogs barking, its a pound to a penny that will be Oscars rendition of dogbarking too.

:floorlaugh::floorlaugh: