Trial Discussion Thread #3 - 14.03.08-09, Weekend

[Carol70]

I cannot believe that any reputable medical facility would tell a caller to just stick a person with three gunshot wounds in the car and bring them to hospital themselves. I know that someone has suggested that ambulances take a while and therefore people make their own way to hospital if they can, but surely the nature and severity of the injury has to be taken into account. This leads me to two possible scenarios:

1. Oscar never called Netcare and this will come out in due course. Given the leakiness surrounding the facts of this case i do not recall ever seeing confirmation from Netcare that they received this call or that they gave OP the advice he says they did.
2. Oscar did call Netcare but misled them about the nature of Reeva's injuries thus causing them to give inappropriate advice and to fail to dispatch an ambulance and paramedics to the house.

I sincerely doubt that Roux would have raised the matter about the netcare call if he hadn't checked himself that the call was actually made, besides the phone records. That would be a blatant outright lie then and severely detrimental to the bail application. He blasted Botha to kingdom come and back for not verifying it himself with netcare. We do not know what the nature of the call was or what was said. And yes, reputable medical facilities do often recommend that you drive a patient yourself if possible, at the end of the day, time is of the essence and it may have been quicker for OP to get her to the hospital than wait for an ambulance. Considering at THAT stage, Reeva was in fact, still medically alive.

And having just gone through his statement again, I see where there is somewhat a lot of screaming going on,consistent with witnesses. OP screams at intruder and Reeva, shoots door, screams some more for help, bats down door at 3.17, calls netcare at 3.20 and THEN carries her downstairs when others start to arrive, well past the 3.20 mark. The only thing really left at THIS point of the evidence is the woman/man screams...although a witness has already testified she mistook OP screaming for a woman. And I'm sure it was this forum where someone posted a link to a man screaming like a girl when he got a fright...not quite the same as the OP scenario but it is possible.

For a condensed recap of OP events during this time frame:

• Feeling “vulnerable” without his prosthetic legs, he got his gun and moved towards the bathroom, and screamed at the "intruder" to get out of the house and for Steenkamp to call the police, he said. He thought she was still in bed, he said.

• He then fired through the bathroom door, according to his statement. At that point, Pistorius saw that Steenkamp was not in bed, he said, and suddenly realised she might have been the person in the bathroom. "It filled me with horror and fear," he said of that moment.

• The bathroom door was locked. He said he went to the balcony and called for help, and then put on his prosthetic legs and opened the toilet door by smashing it with a cricket bat.

• Steenkamp was slumped over inside, but still alive, he said. He took her to the bathroom, called paramedics, and tried to carry her downstairs to get help, he said; he tried to revive her but “she died in my arms”.

 

[Carol70]

I find it irrelevant that he may have been watching *advertiser censored*, he was a 26 year old young man who clearly enjoyed the company of beautiful woman and enjoyed "sexy times" with them...who is to say that Reeva didn't enjoy watching it too and they were not watching together at some point. I highly doubt he had these woman spending time sleeping in his bed so they can read books together So totally not related to this case at all.

 

[soozieqtips]

~snipped~

I mentioned that any testimony from a scorned ex-girlfriend should be viewed with caution - that is true across the board, and not limited to this trial or anything in particular that Samantha testified to.

She has an axe to grind. That is very clear.

BBM - Out of interest, does this mean you think that any of OP's friends or family who testify that OP genuinely loved Reeva and would never have knowingly hurt her should also be viewed with caution, since they too would have an agenda? They would be desperate to show a completely different side to what's already been portrayed in court, so how would you know who to believe? His own family have surely got their own axe to grind for OP being charged with murder in the first place when it was merely an 'accident'.

 

[fruity]

A good article with lots of details.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/20...erything-is-fine?mch=mobilenh&mchpost=tabloid

Pistorius watched Taylor as she was consoled by her sister, clenching his jaw so hard the tendons in his cheek bulged.

 

[soozieqtips]

~snipped~

And having just gone through his statement again, I see where there is somewhat a lot of screaming going on,consistent with witnesses. OP screams at intruder and Reeva

So he screamed at the intruder AND at Reeva and yet at no time did Reeva respond. Surely him screaming twice would have woken her up (had she been asleep). And if she were cowering in a locked toilet because she thought there was an intruder, she would have known the intruder couldn't have got to her because the door was locked. So why not just shout out to Oscar to let him know where she was? There simply isn't a logical reason why she didn't respond to OP. She was safe behind a locked door.

 

[Estelle]

http://m.news24.com/news24/southafr...stions-asked-about-oscar-trial-judge-20140307

 

[katydid23]

Well when it comes down to it, if it fits another narrative and it also fits Oscar's narrative then I don't think you can get beyond a reasonable doubt, and you're right - that does not make it true. Do you agree?

perhaps there could be a 'reasonable doubt' in the end. But I am not sure yet, because of other details which might swing it to GUILTY. For example, if he accidentally shot his gf, and was so worried about her medical condition, why did he tell the security guard that things ' were fine' = major question in my mind?

[I remember when my son was a little boy and he fell in the house while rough housing and broke his arm. When it happened I was so afraid and upset and needed to get him medical care and all I could think of was how to get him HELP as fast as I possibly could. NO WAY I would have told someone that everything was fine, OR that "I was fine." ]

That is a detail that I just cannot get past right now. If he was sitting there with a dying girlfriend, how could he answer the guard's question that way?

 

[katydid23]

~snipped~


So he screamed at the intruder AND at Reeva and yet at no time did Reeva respond. Surely him screaming twice would have woken her up (had she been asleep). And if she were cowering in a locked toilet because she thought there was an intruder, she would have known the intruder couldn't have got to her because the door was locked. So why not just shout out to Oscar to let him know where she was? There simply isn't a logical reason why she didn't respond to OP. She was safe behind a locked door.

And just in case she was hiding silently because she thought there was an intruder, once he started shooting her, and the first bullet entered her thigh, wouldnt she have screamed out?????

According to the witnesses, she did scream DURING the sound of bullets. And that makes the most sense to me. WHY would she not scream if he was accidentally shooting her OR shooting her on purpose? Either way, she'd be screaming.

I just cannot believe his version, that he was accidentally shooting her, and she did not yell out " STOP, IT"s ME!"

 

[Carol70]

~snipped~


So he screamed at the intruder AND at Reeva and yet at no time did Reeva respond. Surely him screaming twice would have woken her up (had she been asleep). And if she were cowering in a locked toilet because she thought there was an intruder, she would have known the intruder couldn't have got to her because the door was locked. So why not just shout out to Oscar to let him know where she was? There simply isn't a logical reason why she didn't respond to OP. She was safe behind a locked door.

Well, I guess if he was moving towards the bathroom at a fast pace, how would he have known that she hadn't woken up and was not calling police like he had shouted at her to do?? It's not to say she would have started screaming too, he might have just thought she would wake and make the call without shouting out herself???

Also, we cannot know for a fact when the door was actually locked, did she lock it when she went into the bathroom...or did she lock it when she heard OP screaming there is an intruder??? I doubt he would have heard her turning the key while he is screaming down the passage to the bathroom. I can imagine while she was alive in that loo moments before the shooting, she was incredibly afraid and confused as to what was happening on the other side of the door.... ( and I'm saying this in relation to what OP said happened) . In my mind, it's quite rational and plausible.

 

[Carol70]

http://m.news24.com/news24/southafr...stions-asked-about-oscar-trial-judge-20140307

Thanks Estelle, interesting and answers some of the questions we have all been asking.

 

[lilblue]

And just in case she was hiding silently because she thought there was an intruder, once he started shooting her, and the first bullet entered her thigh, wouldnt she have screamed out?????

According to the witnesses, she did scream DURING the sound of bullets. And that makes the most sense to me. WHY would she not scream if he was accidentally shooting her OR shooting her on purpose? Either way, she'd be screaming.

I just cannot believe his version, that he was accidentally shooting her, and she did not yell out " STOP, IT"s ME!"

That's why the defense wants the head shot to have been the first wound. His story is that he shot through the door 4 times in quick succession and that there was no screaming on her part. Is his statement does he say that he called out a warning before firing (I'm not caught up on all the evidence)? That's a problem for me, because if he did scream out at the "intruder", why wouldn't she respond? Add the testimony from multiple people that there was screaming before the shots and his story holds no water at all.

 

[Estelle]

I find it irrelevant that he may have been watching *advertiser censored*, he was a 26 year old young man who clearly enjoyed the company of beautiful woman and enjoyed "sexy times" with them...who is to say that Reeva didn't enjoy watching it too and they were not watching together at some point. I highly doubt he had these woman spending time sleeping in his bed so they can read books together So totally not related to this case at all.

It appears that the State thinks it is entirely related to this case.

So how many women in the world would watch X-rated *advertiser censored* with their partner on a mobile phone? I don't know of any. Voyeurism not activity?

Is that what a loving relationship is all about on the eve of Valentine's Day?

I have some questions for you:

Why did OP conveniently forget his password?

Pistorius claims to have forgotten the four-digit passcode needed to unlock the phone, found on the bathroom floor of his Pretoria home, along with three others. He was allegedly looking at pornographic websites the night his model girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp was shot and killed, it was reported in the South African media last week.

Lieutenant General Vineshkumar Moonoo, who is leading the investigation, said in June: 'I cannot say Pistorius’s memory failure is suspicious but the mobile phones were clearly in use up to the time of the killing.

Why did they find it so important that they sent a detective to the USA to unlock the phone just before the trial started and then this information about his watching X-rated *advertiser censored* sites was then released just before the trial?

South African police investigating the shooting of Reeva Steenkamp by Oscar Pistorius have sent a detective to Apple's headquarters in the U.S. to unlock the paralympian's iPhone. They believe the device could contain facts vital to piecing together what happened the night the 29-year-old model died.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-iPhone-protected-password.html#ixzz2vN1tCeIC

 

[Carol70]

And just in case she was hiding silently because she thought there was an intruder, once he started shooting her, and the first bullet entered her thigh, wouldnt she have screamed out?????

According to the witnesses, she did scream DURING the sound of bullets. And that makes the most sense to me. WHY would she not scream if he was accidentally shooting her OR shooting her on purpose? Either way, she'd be screaming.

I just cannot believe his version, that he was accidentally shooting her, and she did not yell out " STOP, IT"s ME!"

Yep, it is odd but is it at all possible that when and IF she realized she was being shot at, the shock of it rendered her silent? Like the saying, "standing with a mouth full of teeth". Also, I would imagine if she had time to think in those moments, she might not ever have imagined that it was indeed OP who was shooting at her.

 

[Carol70]

It appears that the State thinks it is entirely related to this case.

So how many women in the world would watch X-rated *advertiser censored* with their partner on a mobile phone? I don't know of any.

Is that what a loving relationship is all about on the eve of Valentine's Day?

I have come questions for you:

Why did OP conveniently forget his password?





Why did they find it so important that they sent a detective to the USA to unlock the phone just before the trial started and then this information about his watching X-rated *advertiser censored* sites was then released just before the trial?



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-iPhone-protected-password.html#ixzz2vN1tCeIC

Truth be told, I actually have no idea why he would or could forget it...I'm honestly stumped and have no answer I would imagine it was highly important to find out what activity was going on the phone prior to the shooting. And guess we will find out as time goes on...hopefully soon.

As lovers on valentine watching *advertiser censored*, well haha I guess some people get their rocks off in different ways maybe, who knows. I'm still actually not sure if it was his iPad or iPhone that needed unlocking?? Is there any confirmation?

 

[katydid23]

Yep, it is odd but is it at all possible that when and IF she realized she was being shot at, the shock of it rendered her silent? Like the saying, "standing with a mouth full of teeth". Also, I would imagine if she had time to think in those moments, she might not ever have imagined that it was indeed OP who was shooting at her.

Good points, but even if she didn't know who was shooting her, isn't the automatic reaction to being shot to SCREAM OUT?

I think she did scream when she was being shot. It makes the most sense to me, physically and biologically.

 

[katydid23]

Truth be told, I actually have no idea why he would or could forget it...I'm honestly stumped and have no answer I would imagine it was highly important to find out what activity was going on the phone prior to the shooting. And guess we will find out as time goes on...hopefully soon.

As lovers on valentine watching *advertiser censored*, well haha I guess some people get their rocks off in different ways maybe, who knows. I'm still actually not sure if it was his iPad or iPhone that needed unlocking?? Is there any confirmation?

But if she was still wearing clothes, were they ever watching *advertiser censored* together? LOL

 

[Estelle]

~snipped~

BBM - Out of interest, does this mean you think that any of OP's friends or family who testify that OP genuinely loved Reeva and would never have knowingly hurt her should also be viewed with caution, since they too would have an agenda? They would be desperate to show a completely different side to what's already been portrayed in court, so how would you know who to believe? His own family have surely got their own axe to grind for OP being charged with murder in the first place when it was merely an 'accident'.

So true! In fact one of them has changed her mind since she gave a statement at the Bail Hearing:

In a statement read out to the court during Pistorius's bail hearing last week, Greyvenstein said that Steenkamp, "would have married Oscar if he’d asked her". "She said he was intense but she loved him," Greyvenstein said, adding that he treated her "like gold".

http://www.news.com.au/world/reeva-...-oscar-pistorius/story-fndir2ev-1226587614627

Reeva’s model chum changes tune

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/reeva-s-model-chum-changes-tune-1.1651224#.UxsIzT-SxrU

 

[Estelle]

~snipped~

BBM - Out of interest, does this mean you think that any of OP's friends or family who testify that OP genuinely loved Reeva and would never have knowingly hurt her should also be viewed with caution, since they too would have an agenda? They would be desperate to show a completely different side to what's already been portrayed in court, so how would you know who to believe? His own family have surely got their own axe to grind for OP being charged with murder in the first place when it was merely an 'accident'.

Another thought is that OP's father is not there in the court to support him. However, he was at the Bail hearing.

 

[Patagonia]

Hi,

I've been following this case from the start, and recently stumbled upon these comments under the articles, which I think are very interesting and could perhaps provide with a motive?

I was wondering what you guys make of them? These comments certainly paint a very different picture of Reeva and Oscar's relationship!

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/news/reeva-and-oscars-parents-still-tussling-over-settlement.htm

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/hougaard-denies-sms-to-reeva-1.1583956#.UxsLGn-9KSP

 

[Trooper]

Yesterdays testimony was mesmerizing.... so much to categorise...

Samantha Taylor.... the statement she made in regard to Oscar hearing noises in the bathroom, and saying it was someone coming thru the window on at least 2 occasions...

I tie that up with the killing of Reeva.. they go to sleep with the blinds, the windows open, 2 fans on the balcony. Then I tie this with Oscars self diagnosis of himself as security paranoid and with 'a deep sense of terror' re the 'intruder'...

If he heard sounds on at least 2 previous occasions located from the bathroom window, a true paranoid would have had burgler bars slotted up there before he ever moved into the house.. I can't believe he lived there for quite some time with no bars inserted in that particular window, considering he regarded himself as security conscious and possibly paranoid.. I believe his 'paranoia' is of a fleeting and convenient matter, trotted out after the fact.. the guns are toys, not for protection.

Going to sleep with the windows open, and the blinds AND 2 fans out on the balcony, KNOWING their is a ladder propped up at this unbarred bathroom window is the habit of a very secure man. No paranoid could for one second close their eyes under these circumstances.. each and every lock, bar, alarm, weapon, curtain , blind, window, each and every possible entry to his house would have been checked, and checked again, and then checked one more time, then after reflection the whole procedure of assurance done again. Then one more time , THEN perhaps sleep.

So either he IS paranoid, and if so, those blinds and windows and the 2 lonely fans on the balcony are nonsense.. or he ISNT paranoid, he went to sleep with all this insecurity. Cant have it both ways..

Certainly cant have it that he already on other occasions has heard 'sounds' from that particular bathroom window and goes to sleep that particular night, with not only the window still unbarred , but a known ladder propped up outside it..

nooooo..

Then... the stunning response, 'Everythings fine',.. to the security guard , ,no less.. the one thing a paranoid relies on..

Nowhere in his affidavit, nor his bail hearing application, does he refer to this incoming call from Mr Baba... it just never raises it head. He says HE called the security, and yes, he does.. he calls Stander.. but he makes NO MENTION of the previoius INCOMING call from the guard on duty, Mr Baba, in the company of Jacob, the other guard on patrol, which Mr Baba makes to Oscar after incoming calls to HIM re gunshots, screaming.

Oscar never at any time refers to this incoming call.. not anywhere.