Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Viper]

Arterial spurting = beating heart. Crasshopper even went to the trouble of looking this up in forensic medical journals. Maybe you should present your compression stocking theory to the DT because it's certainly novel

BIB. That is incorrect. Here is what Crasshopper concluded:

Quote:
"Unlike at the wound site, initially blood remains liquid within the circulatory system after death, rather than coagulating.

I have no idea what happened maybe the blood in the bedroom & below the stairs is the first case of some type of mimic of arterial spurt..."

 

[lisasalinger]

My issue with giving the scene too much weight is twofold: First, I'm not sure it can be relied on as there is subsequent evidence of a degree of general police carelessness and unprofessionalism. Secondly, can Oscar really say with certainty what happened in those moments after the shooting when he claims he went back into the bedroom? Nel's job is to pin him to precise movements that he may not in fact be able to accurately recall. Who knows what happened to the duvet and the jeans for example when he was, according to his version, in the early stages of realizing what he'd done. Did he knock the duvet off the bed? Kick the jeans a little on the floor as he was going by to get to the balcony? Who knows. These little things (and they are little things) would matter more if the big things didn't tell a different story.

BBM

They are absolutely not little things. Oscar himself on the stand testified that if the duvet was in fact in that position on the floor in front of the bed it would create a big problem for his story. Those were HIS words. Considering that OP changed his story about the duvet three different times on the stand, I think Nel sufficiently proved that he was lying about it.

 

[minor4th]

We're only in the first stage of the trial. Once the PT and DT have presented and tested all the evidence (by cross examination) each party will then present it's case to the judge and argue their case on the evidence presented. The state usually goes first.

Yes and I'm sure a lot of this will be tied together in the closing arguments. But I don't think Nel can make a medical argument about how long a heart can beat after a fatal head wound if there was no evidence presented to that effect.

Maybe there's something in the autopsy report that hasn't been explicitly discussed during Saayman's testimony. We also don't have an exact transcript of what Saayman said so it's possible he did address this. :shrug:

 

[liesbeth]

Yes, I think there were several photos taken at 5:58 of that general area of the fan, duvet, curtains etc. That does not trouble me.

And I'm not suggesting tampering or a conspiracy or any kind of frame-up. All I'm saying is that the evidence suggests that the police did not take good care of the crime scene and did not document it like they should have. And because of that it makes it really difficult to know for sure which pictures are reliable and whether any of them can confidently be considered accurate depictions of the crime scene exactly after the incident.

BTW there were also pictures taken by Motha upstairs at 5:57 and some seconds. There has been no testimony that the time stamps on either photographer's cameras was inaccurate, so I'm presuming that they were at least close to accurate

Nel showed us a photograph that Van Staden took in the passage from the bedroom. It was a closeup of a cartridge.

At the same time Motha took a picture of that passage from the bedroom.

The two photographs were taken at the same time but Van Staden was not visible on Motha's photograph.

That pretty much showed that the two cameras' times were not the same.

 

[Val1]

No, because those first sounds are the difference between murder and not. First bangs being part of an altercation back the State's assertion Reeva was intentionally murdered in the heat of an argument.

That's my understanding...and it would make sense the defence would fight so hard for the earlier bangs to be the gunshots even though it seems implausible.

JMO

Hmm, I can understand wanting the bat sounds first to draw attention to the arguing/screaming, but since the arguing/screaming(in some variation) was heard by iirc all the witnesses and before the final set(and to some witnesses the only set) of sounds(gunshots imo as determined by the arterial spurts), the possible bat sounds seems to me to be more of a DT thing that is now only confusing the plot.

 

[Jake18]

BIB. That is incorrect. Here is what Crasshopper concluded:

Quote:
"Unlike at the wound site, initially blood remains liquid within the circulatory system after death, rather than coagulating.

I have no idea what happened maybe the blood in the bedroom & below the stairs is the first case of some type of mimic of arterial spurt..."

Include the full quotation, Viper

 

[liesbeth]

Yes and I'm sure a lot of this will be tied together in the closing arguments. But I don't think Nel can make a medical argument about how long a heart can beat after a fatal head wound if there was no evidence presented to that effect.

Maybe there's something in the autopsy report that hasn't been explicitly discussed during Saayman's testimony. We also don't have an exact transcript of what Saayman said so it's possible he did address this. :shrug:

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Karmady]

Rewatched a portion of Dateline to review a segment with Reggie Perumal, a forensic pathologist presented as an expert for the defense. He said, in summary, we all agree that Reeva died on the way down the stairs. Dateline also reported the GSW to the head was above the ear. No mention of a shattered skull base or trajectory but given the bullets used obviously the damage was extensive. This supports continued (weak) cardiac activity and arterial spurts in the bedroom and somewhere in the stair area. Personally, again I feel this supports cricket bat first.

I don't know if this is why Perumal (?Perumai) is no longer with the DT.

From the article below-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/18/the-tattered-defense-of-oscar-pistorius/?tid=pm_national_pop



...things that make you go hmmm

Do you have a link to that Dateline? Or did you dvr it. I can't find it googling

 

[BritsKate]

Why does that seem implausible to you?

It's 4am and I'm unlikely to make a whole lotta sense. Cliff notes version: The limited forensic evidence available and testified to so far. The links provided are when I had the mental fortitude to explain my reasoning much better. I hope you don't mind too much.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #30

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #30

 

[Viper]

Rewatched a portion of Dateline to review a segment with Reggie Perumal, a forensic pathologist presented as an expert for the defense. He said, in summary, we all agree that Reeva died on the way down the stairs. Dateline also reported the GSW to the head was above the ear. No mention of a shattered skull base or trajectory but given the bullets used obviously the damage was extensive. This supports continued (weak) cardiac activity and arterial spurts in the bedroom and somewhere in the stair area. Personally, again I feel this supports cricket bat first.

I don't know if this is why Perumal (?Perumai) is no longer with the DT.

From the article below-

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/18/the-tattered-defense-of-oscar-pistorius/?tid=pm_national_pop



...things that make you go hmmm

BIB. That is what he said last year when he had OPs affidavit as a reference. In that OP flies through the whole sequence of events as though it took him a minute maybe two from the time he fired the shots to him getting her downstairs. And obviously Reggie wanted to spin a favorable tale of innocence for OP. But now, after having worked with the DT on this case for over a year, Reggie is out, he us not willing to repeat that story in court.

 

[minor4th]

Nel showed us a photograph that Van Staden took in the passage from the bedroom. It was a closeup of a cartridge.

At the same time Motha took a picture of that passage from the bedroom.

The two photographs were taken at the same time but Van Staden was not visible on Motha's photograph.

That pretty much showed that the two cameras' times were not the same.

No, they were taken during the same minute but no seconds were given. That time also happened to correspond with Van Staden going back into the bedroom for a few shots before returning to the bathroom.

So for example VS could have taken a picture in the hallway at 6:04:03, then moved to the bedroom while Motha then takes a shot in the hallway at 6:04:47

Also, Roux produced pretty solid proof that Mothas pictures were at the same time as Van Staden's by reference to Motha's photos that showed items in their original positions in the bathroom and before they had been moved.

 

[minor4th]

It's 4am and I'm unlikely to make a whole lotta sense. Cliff notes version: The limited forensic evidence available and testified to so far. The links provided are when I had the mental fortitude to explain my reasoning much better. I hope you don't mind too much.



Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #30



Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Trial Discussion Thread #30

I don't mind

Sleep well.

 

[Val1]

No, they were taken during the same minute but no seconds were given. That time also happened to correspond with Van Staden going back into the bedroom for a few shots before returning to the bathroom.

So for example VS could have taken a picture in the hallway at 6:04:03, then moved to the bedroom while Motha then takes a shot in the hallway at 6:04:47

Also, Roux produced pretty solid proof that Mothas pictures were at the same time as Van Staden's by reference to Motha's photos that showed items in their original positions in the bathroom and before they had been moved.

So Motha was following behind to take pics after VS would have taken initial pics of the scene then moved items to take better pics?

 

[Harmony 2]

Yes and I'm sure a lot of this will be tied together in the closing arguments. But I don't think Nel can make a medical argument about how long a heart can beat after a fatal head wound if there was no evidence presented to that effect.

Maybe there's something in the autopsy report that hasn't been explicitly discussed during Saayman's testimony. We also don't have an exact transcript of what Saayman said so it's possible he did address this. :shrug:

Will there be a rebuttal phase?

 

[Feynman]

I thought that was only because the DT was trying to show that the first set of sounds were gunshots, which as it turns out, does not fit with what all 5 witnesses heard or the blood evidence, correct? Seems like a red herring that got the DT spending much of their resources trying to prove something that in the end makes no difference to what actually caused RS's death.

But it does fit what the witnesses heard. Only the Stipps heard the first set of bangs. And they thought all bangs were gunshots - which can't be right. The other witnesses only heard the second set of bangs. This is consistent with gunshots first/ bat bangs second. I have not thought too much about the blood evidence.

Everyone agrees on the cause of Reeva's death so I'm not sure I'm following you there.

 

[Jake18]

BIB. That is incorrect. Here is what Crasshopper concluded:

Quote:
"Unlike at the wound site, initially blood remains liquid within the circulatory system after death, rather than coagulating.

I have no idea what happened maybe the blood in the bedroom & below the stairs is the first case of some type of mimic of arterial spurt..."

This is crasshoppers' full quote, respectfully transcribed from the previous threads.

I'm glad we agree, excellent earlier post btw. I also wanted to thank everyone for the interesting debate.

Sadly, the major limitation remains that Reeva's autopsy report was never made available and the pathologists testimony was not aired nor a transcript made available. We are left with reporters' summaries.

The brain areas directly damaged are critical to our understanding and conclusions and to my knowledge none of us know the details of her brain injury, just the report that it was incapacitating and (eventually?) fatal. Was it a shot through the cortex, midbrain or brain stem or some permutation. Makes a huge difference. She was also sumultaneously exsanguinating from her other wounds which should hasten death.

What is an accepted medical fact I personally heard this from Cyril Wecht, a noted medical examiner and found several references inluding in the journal 'Forensic Medicine,' no heart beat no arterial spurt.


Notes from 'Essential Forensic Biology' By Alan Gunn

It should be remembered that bleeding takes place both internally and externally so the amount of blood surrounding a body may not reflect the amount actually lost.

Wounds, after death do not bleed profusely because the heart
is no longer beating and blood pressure is not maintained. Blood from even a severed artery therefore trickles out as a consequence of gravity rather than spurting.

...I would conclude from the latter that squeezing or compressing an injured limb with said injured artery, would consequently not yield an arterial pattern, although it might 'eject' blood.


CORRECTION from an earlier post:
Unlike at the wound site, initially blood remains liquid within the circulatory system after death, rather than coagulating.

I have no idea what happened maybe the blood in the bedroom & below the stairs is the first case of some type of mimic of arterial spurt, but as is often said- If It Looks Like A Horse, Walks Like A Horse and Sounds Like A Horse, It's Probably Not A Zebra.

I hope, PlayItCloseToTheVest Gerrie Nel, will be able to tie it all together. He may be waiting for the pertinent defense experts to testify, if they have one.

I'm going to catch up on on the posts I've missed

<modsnip>

 

[JuneBug67]

But it does fit what the witnesses heard. Only the Stipps heard the first set of bangs. And they thought all bangs were gunshots - which can't be right. The other witnesses only heard the second set of bangs. This is consistent with gunshots first/ bat bangs second. I have not thought too much about the blood evidence.

Everyone agrees on the cause of Reeva's death so I'm not sure I'm following you there.

And the only conclusive physical evidence on the door supports the bat strikes second as well. A crack in a piece of wood is a pretty objective witness.

 

[BritsKate]

Hmm, I can understand wanting the bat sounds first to draw attention to the arguing/screaming, but since the arguing/screaming(in some variation) was heard by iirc all the witnesses and before the final set(and to some witnesses the only set) of sounds(gunshots imo as determined by the arterial spurts), the possible bat sounds seems to me to be more of a DT thing that is now only confusing the plot.

But both sides have conceded two sets of bangs. For the defence, the first set have to be gunshots, because if they're actually OP hitting the toilet door with a bat to scare Reeva during an argument - it bolsters the State's assertion, and subsequent testimony by witnesses, that there was an argument, and it totally discredits OP's account, which would likely lead to a murder conviction.

Simply because the defence has put forth that the gunshots were shortly after 3am, it could not have been Reeva screaming, it was Oscar screaming, there was no argument, and sought to discredit the State's witnesses make each set of bangs important to both sides, for wholly different reasons.

JMO

 

[minor4th]

Will there be a rebuttal phase?

I don't believe so, but I think their closing arguments are more extensive than what we see in the US.

ETA: The judge can also call additional witnesses if she wants additional information

 

[minor4th]

So Motha was following behind to take pics after VS would have taken initial pics of the scene then moved items to take better pics?

I don't know what Motha was doing, but he was there with Van Staden in the crime scene when Van Staden was supposed to be alone and preserving the crime scene.