Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Trooper]

Stretching one's belief into adhering to the fallacy of Oscar screaming like a woman, is really several steps too far in the suspension of logic game..its too much.. if it was all one had to hang on a hook, maybe.. maybe somewhere in the world men regularly scream like women with monotonous regularity, but on this night, at this place .. no.

Screaming like a woman isn't much use, really. Oscar has to scream exactly like the woman the witnesses heard.. and not only heard, but comprehensively placed very similar descriptors to that sound.. 'blood curdling.' 'terrified, terrified'... 'fearful'.. painfilled'...

Now.. .. applying logic... can Oscar do this???? and did Oscar do this?? I don't think so..

and for those still sticking with this story, both Mrs VD Mewre and Mrs Stipp have been asked by Nel about the 'Oscar screaming test'... Mrs VD Mewre said she didn't hear a thing. .. ( means Oscar didn't get up to pitch or decibels) and Mrs Stipp testified that the test Roux did next door to her was ludicrous.. sounded nothing like the screams she heard, it was clearly a man, and what's more, he couldn't keep the screaming going.

 

[jay-jay]

I don't know what the rules of evidence in SA are but, as I mentioned, in the US it would not, and specifically has not been allowed in a very recent high profile case. Attempting to recreate the defendants screams is not good evidence and recreating the circumstances of the scream would, obviously, be unethical.

jmo

Absolutely .. problem is that Roux promised that we would be shown an example of it, which has yet to be delivered IMO

 

[Trooper]

I would imagine that being such a hot night that most of the neighbours in such an affluent neigbourhood, would have all their doors and windows closed and their air conditioners on. That the Stipp's didn't was quite likely due to Mrs.Stipp already being sick, air conditioners aren't the best thing if suffering from flu/cough.

And the Stipps felt so secure that they had all their windows open and they have 3 small children in the house as well. so much for this 'fear' nonsense.

 

[Val1]

Van Rensburg testified in cross-x that Van Staden arrived after OP was moved from the kitchen to the garage. He and Hilton Botha remained in the company of Van Staden while he took photographs of Reeva downstairs. All three then went upstairs following the blood trail and into the bathroom.

There are a few things not making sense regarding those allegedly present at the crime scene.

Van Rensburg testified in cross-x that OP was left in the kitchen whilst he and Hilton Botha went upstairs. Hilton Botha's statement claims that OP was already in the garage when he arrived. This makes it highly probable that Van Rensburg attended the crime scene on his own, before the arrival of Hilton Botha.

There is also the discrepancy that there is nothing in Van Rensburg's original statement that mentions Hilton Botha.

Van Rensburg also testified in cross-x that Sgt. Ntome Sebetha arrived about the same time, and was standing in the kitchen area but didn't go upstairs. The state disclosed Sgt. Sebetha's statement to the DT which indicated that at 3.30am he received information about the shooting at the house of Mr Pistorius and immediately rushed to the scene of the crime together with Constable C????

He indicated that when he arrived the paramedics were still working on Reeva, which was before anyone else arrived.

He goes on to say...I proceeded to the upper building where I noticed droplets of blood...I went upstairs...and I found blood and a firearm, 9mm Taurus (stainless) in the main bathroom, and 4 cartridges were lying around in the bathroom. The toilet door was broken.

Hmm, did this Sgt. testify whether he was wearing protective foot coverings while he tromped around upstairs?

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Has the OP trial caused everyone to get hyper alert in SA or something, or is it always like this? This poor runner missed his marathon because he got hit on the head during training. He's an attorney, so the case isn't likely to go away quietly.....

It's a bit of a coincidence that the case involves a runner and an officer named LeRoux.

http://www.timeslive.co.za/local/2014/04/22/cape-town-runner-assaulted-in-alleged-racial-attack

Yes, I heard about this last Saturday morning. I ran the 2 Oceans and I overheard someone mentioning this at the finish (UCT).

Folk here are generally hyper alert, but this incident 'smacks' of racial profiling by ignorant Neighborhood Watch idiots. These are 'so called' volunteers who patrol suburbs etc to 'assist' the police. There are some very effective 'Watches' in certain areas, and then there are those filled with vigilante like morons. :scared:

le Roux will go down - badly.

 

[Jake18]

I know it is a source of "amusement" to refer to "Oscar screaming like a woman"

The issue really is though, can people Mis-interpret a Man's high pitched anguished cries as sounding like a woman screaming. There is a subtle difference.

People can, for instance, mistake a cat's cries for a human baby. Nobody would claim that the cat in question sounded exactly like a baby.... it is a case of Mis-perception, and illusion, which is quite common. We all make mistakes in what we interpret from what we see and hear. That is the basis of optical illusions, in the extreme case, or just common, everyday mistakes.

"To err is human"

I think if it was one or two screams OP might have a case (the strangely mute woman notwithstanding) but all ear witnesses were adamant they heard a distressed woman, some over a longer period . I agree that a cat's mews could be mistaken for a baby's cries but there's something about a crying baby that evokes a stress response in people. And it's supposed to as it ensures rheir needs are met. One or two cat mews could be mistaken for a baby but over a period of some minutes I think this is less likely. (Unless you were deeply, deeply fond of cats).

 

[jay-jay]

Good catch on the toilet bowl siphoning effect. Yes, that is what would happen, which can be tested at home!

That's definitely a good point .. and also, do we have any idea if it was flushed or not yet ..? It certainly looks as if it had been, to my eyes.

 

[jay-jay]

You know it was Motha how? Also, isn't one of the rules of taking evidence pics is to not show anything except the evidence? Seems like someone took that pic with the hand in it on purpose.

I also find it passing strange that I haven't seen any pics of all the people that were in the crime scene, not the Stander's, not the brother and sister, not the lawyer, not the paramedics, not the coroner, not the detectives, none of the techs, not even the locksmith, in fact other than that hand, noone but the few pics of OP.

With all those "leaked" pics that the DT were complaining about(you know, the ones where evidence has already been processed, partially reconstructed door, the stuff that was available the second day when the DT was there, even pics of the wrong toilet room...), where are the ones that show just who was there in the first few hours? I believe a few of the early videos may have captured some of them leaving, but other than those I can't seem to find anything. Anyone have a link that would help?

.. wouldn't surprise me ..

 

[Freya1977]

It seems like common sense to me that a closer witness would be a better ear witness. I don't understand your problem. If the State could have found close neighbors I imagine they would have preferred them to somebody 180 meters away. And I am sure they would have preferred witnesses who were questioned by police soon after the event, rather than weeks later after all the news and hype etc had been broadcast? Common sense? But they are better than nothing. (at a pinch)

The State chose to not call the other neighbors, so I have no idea what their full testimony might have been. Roux went through some names and stated in court that they had said in sworn statement that they DID NOT hear a woman scream. Nel made no objection. I guess their testimony would NOT have helped to Prosecution or else Nel would have called them?

177 metres is not that far. Hell, Oscar could run to their house in less than 20 seconds, and it's pretty much open space between the Burger/Johnson house and OP's.

They also had their windows open. Can you provide the source showing they didn't come forward for "weeks"? I'm just going by memory but from their testimony they said they came to police as soon as they saw on the news an aerial view of the estate and realised they weren't as far away as they'd thought, which is why they didn't come forward immediately - they didn't realise they were actually so close.

It was a hot night. I dare say many in that neighbourhood had their air conditioning going and may easily would have slept through noises from the neighbourhood if they did not have windows open.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

And the Stipps felt so secure that they had all their windows open and they have 3 small children in the house as well. so much for this 'fear' nonsense.

On that specific estate there would not have been a 2nd thought as to safety and security concerns. Had they lived in Lavender Hill on the Cape 'Flats' - different story and valid concerns indeed.

In fact, Oscar himself stated quite happily that his vehicles were always in the driveway - never locked in the garage. He sealed his fate there IMHO.

Even in traditional 'safe' areas people don't leave their vehicles in driveways here in SA. In fact, most South Africans, REGARDLESS of where they stay. It's crime fighting 101 stuff that.

Yet Oscar didn't. :fence:

 

[jay-jay]

BBM. Exactly. It is more likely that post the event this window was opened to construct a scene to support the intruder story IMO.

I think this is was OP trotted upstairs to do, that first time when Dr Stipp saw him go up and was worried OP might shoot himself (not the later time when the paramedics arrived and OP went upstairs again to fetch Reeva's ID from her purse*)


* hey look at me starting to use American terminology! (I've even started to spell 'defence' as 'defense' :blushing: :-D )

 

[lithgow1]

I think a "two stage" bat attack on the door is REALLY stretching credibility.

What was presented in court was bat blows after the gunshots.

We DO have the clear evidence of two sets of loud bangs and two events known to cause loud bangs. I do not see the Judge considering bat blows in two tranches... I really don't. And such a hypothesis would be pure speculation. That is NOT the stuff of "Beyond reasonable doubt"

A two-stage bat hammering on the door holds a lot more credibility than OP's ever changing story IMO.

I understand your desire to closely examine the witness statements but cannot see why OP's statements and credibility are not held to the same standard. Even on a minor issue, but one which speaks to his defence, him not remembering who he called after the 'shooting on the highway' incident is ludicrous. Of course you would remember and if you genuinely couldn't you'd ask everyone it could possibly be in order to find that individual who could confirm your story. But he didn't, which strongly suggests he couldn't, which in turn suggests he made it up. It's kind of astounding that people can brush that and similar incidents off as being of little importance at the same time as they put everyone else's testimony under a microscope.

 

[zwiebel]

'Justice, after all, is being done.'
http://www.economist.com/news/middl...h-south-africans-bit-about-themselves-justice

'The Oscar Pistorius Show' (with some suggestion it could lead to televised trials in Ireland, WTH??)
http://www.independent.ie/lifestyle/the-oscar-pistorius-show-30197623.html

The first linked article seems a little patronizing to me?

 

[Val1]

I think if it was one or two screams OP might have a case (the strangely mute woman notwithstanding) but all ear witnesses were adamant they heard a distressed woman, some over a longer period . I agree that a cat's mews could be mistaken for a baby's cries but there's something about a crying baby that evokes a stress response in people. And it's supposed to as it ensures rheir needs are met. One or two cat mews could be mistaken for a baby but over a period of some minutes I think this is less likely. (Unless you were deeply, deeply fond of cats).

As a woman I can sincerely state that at least for myself, that my body is very capable of differentiating between a baby's cries and a cat... as to whether a man can scream like a woman for upwards of 10-15 minutes whilst yelling in terror at intruders to "get the f* out" and "Reeva call the police", I still need to be convinced. I don't recall OP ever saying he was just plain screaming with no words, did he?

 

[Freya1977]

That's what I have a problem with too- I'm not convinced a normal male could actually scream in falsetto for a prolonged period without their voice cracking and thus making it clear that they were a man. I'm sure the DT will have hunted for an audiologist to say exactly that though.

Also... man screaming in falsetto still sounds like a man, just a high pitched man.

 

[Freya1977]

Quite possibly. Though they must have had something to say, else Nel woul not have had them on his witness list...... or are you suggesting that Nel was playing games... sticking names on his list just to stop people testifying for the defense?
I'll say again... the Stipps were GREAT witnesses (for the defense)
OP NEEDS people who heard BOTH sets of bangs, and he needs people who can confirm what he said about crying out AFTER the shots.

BIB - No, I don't think so...

They basically show OP is lying about the light not being on.

They also said they heard a man's voice clearly at the same time as the woman's terrified screams.

The fact that only the closest neighbours heard the FIRST set of bangs is extremely telling. Why? Because only the closest neighbours are going to hear a cricket bat.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

177 metres is not that far. Hell, Oscar could run to their house in less than 20 seconds, and it's pretty much open space between the Burger/Johnson house and OP's.

They also had their windows open. Can you provide the source showing they didn't come forward for "weeks"? I'm just going by memory but from their testimony they said they came to police as soon as they saw on the news an aerial view of the estate and realised they weren't as far away as they'd thought, which is why they didn't come forward immediately - they didn't realise they were actually so close.

It was a hot night. I dare say many in that neighbourhood had their air conditioning going and may easily would have slept through noises from the neighborhood if they did not have windows open.

Burger and Johnson were on their way to Mpumalanga for a holiday when they heard Oscar's bail application statement on radio. Burger stated clearly that what 'she had heard' didn't fit with what was in his statement.
They then approached their own attorney for advice on how to proceed.

In fact, I think she also stated that she was certain neighbors who were closer would have gone forward and stated exactly they (Burger & Johnson) had heard. Once she realized this was not the case - they acted.

I have no doubt others would have heard what they heard, but because of the 'accused' involved, would not have admitted to this. Oscar is not a fellow to be messed with - most knew this before the murder. I wouldn't blame those who remained silent.

Burger and Johnson deserve nothing but respect for even stepping forward. Nothing to gain, yet much to lose (which they would have been aware of)

And re: the aircons. You are so correct. Here in CT in summer (Feb) we often reach temps of 42 degrees celsius (98 degrees F - I suck at math....), which means my air cons often run all day and night. One hears VERY little from the outside, especially if one has the larger BTU units running.

 

[zwiebel]

I haven't been able to reconcile the damage to the outside of bedroom door, because I could not think of any scenario where Oscar would have left the bedroom and Reeva could have locked him out.

I don't think she would have damaged the door had he locked her out, and I don't think she would have been able to physically push him out.

It just struck me that something that might fit, would be if they'd argued and OP reacted as he had with Sam Taylor, snapping and grabbing Reeva's overnight bag and rushing downstairs with it to her car, while shouting 'Get the *advertiser censored** out of my house!'.

If he'd then come back and found the bedroom door locked and a frightened Reeva behind it, saying she'd call the police, I can see things would have really escalated.

But for OP to replace the bag neatly upstairs later, before police arrived, would have required a very cool, calculating act. I'm not sure he was capable of that.

 

[Freya1977]

I think a "two stage" bat attack on the door is REALLY stretching credibility.

What was presented in court was bat blows after the gunshots.

We DO have the clear evidence of two sets of loud bangs and two events known to cause loud bangs. I do not see the Judge considering bat blows in two tranches... I really don't. And such a hypothesis would be pure speculation. That is NOT the stuff of "Beyond reasonable doubt"

Not two sets of bat blows. One set of blows, then the gun shots, then the bat used to pry open the panels.

 

[Trooper]

There is no ambiguity for the Defence, though.. the Screaming Woman has to, and must be eliminated. With the Screaming Woman, all hopes of a defence against the charge of murder are permanently eradicated, never to be resuscitated again in Oscars lifetime.

Because.. the Screaming Woman says everything about this murder. Every. Single. Thing.