Trial Discussion Thread #31

[Cape Town Crim.]

I think the context in which that part of Dr. Stipp's testimony was being examined, though, was in terms of whether or not the cricket bat and the shots could be confused at all. At that stage OP hadn't testified that Reeva was still breathing at the time he broke the door down, so that wasn't something to take into consideration. The state had argued that Dr. Stipp was familiar with guns, the implication being that he couldn't possibly have confused them - yet at that moment, he admitted he could have.

The defence case depends on the first set of bangs being the gunshots; regardless of whatever problems there might be with the timing, that's what their case relies on. So to have one of the state witnesses essentially admit that he might have mistaken bat sounds for shots was an absolutely crucial moment for them.

They should not be testing the bats vs shots then. Because the confusion re: Bats and shots works BOTH ways. With the current state of affairs re: the DT's timeline in their version - the state will happily concede shots and bat strikes sound the same, as the state's case always has been, the shots were fired at 3.17. That is on record.

The bat vs shots from a DT point of view doesn't do much for their timeline and the facts re: Reeva's injuries and time of death. Honestly, I don't know how they are going to keep her alive for such a long period of time in order for their version to even be remotely possible.

As I say, this just me. We are obviously sitting on different sides of the :fence:

(Barry and Kenny don't want any mention of bat first. It is CRUCIAL to their case. Stipp simply stated, if you say they sound so much alike, why can't the bat have been first? - That was a win IMHO)

 

[Freya1977]

Was watching some older testimony today and some of the prosecution witnesses were talking about being in a room together while they waited to testify. DT made a fuss about this, questioning on cross about them being in the one room.

Does anyone know if this is standard procedure, for witnesses to be together in a room during a SA trial?
It seems like it's normal procedure but then why did DT try to use it to discredit the witness? Wouldn't the same procedure stand for defence witnesses too??

 

[kittychi]

Yes there were, too bad his friend left them under the wrong windows eh?

...and the intruder took off his jeans and then climbed up the ladder in his underwear.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Thanks again. I'll go have a read of it now - that other article was excellent.

Don't know about you or anyone else but I am dreading the psychologist's testimony. Not because I fear it will 'help' OP but because I can already smell the jargon. Having said that, the cross may be good.

As others have said, including his prosecutor, why would a man who claims to feel so vulnerable go towards the danger, in the dark, when he had other options? No sensible reason at all for such actions. He himself said he's the kind to confront danger - and then scream like some Hammer horror heroine when danger gives him a sideways glance.

I'm dreading it for the 'cheap and cheesy' "ode to a downtrodden Oscar" it is going to be. But, it is also going to be most interesting. I will be focusing on Oscar's reaction to the psychologists evidence. I am almost prepared to bet my house on the fact that he will:

1. mimic whatever 'frailty' is being discussed (i.e. he will hang his head, drop his shoulders at appropriate times. Sob where necessary etc)

2. he will consciously attempt to 'match' what is being said on the stand with his entire demeanor at that time.

3. he 'might' even nod in agreement at times.

I hope the psychologist doesn't want an 'on camera' session. I would prefer it if the cameras focused on the 'accused' even from afar.

Watching Oscar would give truth, whilst the psychologists words will only be fabrication. (The PT's psychologist might be a little more truthful in terms of Oscar's psyche)

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Was watching some older testimony today and some of the prosecution witnesses were talking about being in a room together while they waited to testify. DT made a fuss about this, questioning on cross about them being in the one room.

Does anyone know if this is standard procedure, for witnesses to be together in a room during a SA trial?
It seems like it's normal procedure but then why did DT try to use it to discredit the witness? Wouldn't the same procedure stand for defence witnesses too??

Yes it is not rare at all. Officials from the NPA are present to ensure no irregularity. Barry knows this, it was simply a 'dramatic much ado about nothing' in playing to the court and international press IMHO.

 

[Cherwell]

I think the context in which that part of Dr. Stipp's testimony was being examined, though, was in terms of whether or not the cricket bat and the shots could be confused at all. At that stage OP hadn't testified that Reeva was still breathing at the time he broke the door down, so that wasn't something to take into consideration. The state had argued that Dr. Stipp was familiar with guns, the implication being that he couldn't possibly have confused them - yet at that moment, he admitted he could have.

The defence case depends on the first set of bangs being the gunshots; regardless of whatever problems there might be with the timing, that's what their case relies on. So to have one of the state witnesses essentially admit that he might have mistaken bat sounds for shots was an absolutely crucial moment for them.

They should not be testing the bats vs shots then. Because the confusion re: Bats and shots works BOTH ways. With the current state of affairs re: the DT's timeline in their version - the state will happily concede shots and bat strikes sound the same, as the state's case always has been, the shots were fired at 3.17. That is on record.

The bat vs shots from a DT point of view doesn't do much for their timeline and the facts re: Reeva's injuries and time of death. Honestly, I don't know how they are going to keep her alive for such a long period of time in order for their version to even be remotely possible.

As I say, this just me. We are obviously sitting on different sides of the :fence:

(Barry and Kenny don't want any mention of bat first. It is CRUCIAL to their case. Stipp simply stated, if you say they sound so much alike, why can't the bat have been first? - That was a win IMHO)

Exactly, I had just marked Kaly99's post to reply to and make a similar point. The Defence are seeking to prove that the bat strikes sounded like gunshots, and if that is true then it would be entirely understandable for witnesses (viz. Dr Stipp) to mistake one for the other.

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Have a fabulous morning/afternoon/evening all. Thank you for the wonderful discussions and posts.

Tonight when I run, I'm going to try once more to 'put myself' in the position of one who believes Oscar. If I come up with anything at all, and I mean anything, that makes his version seem credible......I will report on it tomorrow. I don't hold out much hope though.

 

[Lochlynsmom]

The shear desperation in trying to discredit the ear witnesses on one hand and then have them bolster portions OP version on the other speaks volumes.

 

[Freya1977]

Yes it is not rare at all. Officials from the NPA are present to ensure no irregularity. Barry knows this, it was simply a 'dramatic much ado about nothing' in playing to the court and international press IMHO.

I thought as much, just wanted to clarify. Thanks!

 

[molly333]

Good morning/afternoon/evening.

Something that was posted on here got me thinking last night whilst running. Running time is thinking time (in fact, it's just a rather desperate attempt to make the kilometers disappear a little faster - and NO, it's never successful but I do it anyways....)

I decided to argue with myself. (I know those voices......tsk tsk I should ignore them) For the first time I attempted to 'view' what has come to pass from the corner of those still in doubt re: Oscar's perceived guilt.
I wrapped my head around the PT's evidence and what the DT have offered thus far. I allowed room for what the DT still HAS to offer and what the PT 'could' offer should they successfully apply to re-open their case for e.g. psychological experts etc.

I spent close to 9km's singing from the DT's hymn sheet and honestly, I was left with more doubt in OP's version than what I had before my experiment kicked off. I can't buy anything from OP or his DT at this stage - not even if it's on sale.

My question: Those that believe Oscar could be telling the truth from start to finish, WHAT is it that convinces you of this? Is it simply that the PT haven't convinced you? Is it a belief in Oscar's OWN testimony?

I'm interested in your thoughts on this, simply because I would honestly take them into account when assessing my own bias.

Forgetting for a minute the discussion over whether the State actually did commit to gun first [I am one who believes they did], the fact that there were two sets of 'gunshots' is very much in the defense favor.

Without the first set of 'gunshots,' it is very easy for the State to say, witnesses heard a woman screaming and then gunshots--murder one.

With the first set of 'gunshots,' it now becomes strictly a matter of interpretation, and interpretation always goes to the defense in the States.

Presumption of innocence--you must chose the reasonable interpretation that is consistent with innocence, and we have one from OP and the physical evidence.

If the bat strikes to open the door to the toilet closet had never occurred, we would not have a reasonable and innocent interpretation of the two sets of 'gunshots.' But, the innocent interpretation fits both physical and witness evidence.

To me, that's the end of the game, because there is no smoking gun, as one newspaper said, and no motive presented.

Showing that bat and gun can and do sound alike and that Oscar can scream like a girl are just icing on the cake, but not necessary.

MOO

PS I defer to atty's on this.

 

[Trooper]

it seems that there are still a few posters who are laboring under the delusion that this trial is taking place somewhere in the USA.. some mythical outpost where the accused is always innocent and all presumption goes against the prosecution..

 

[DebinGA]

Re the DT psychologist's testimony, won't the main objective be to show how past events caused OP to have a genuine terror of intruders? Since OP could not come up with any verifiable incidents of himself as a crime victim, will Roux make the dearly departed Mama Pistorius the culprit? Sleeping with a gun under her pillow, repeatedly calling ineffectual police about imaginary intruders, with her three frightened children gathered around her listening for telltale sounds in the night?

 

[Trooper]

Re the DT psychologist's testimony, won't the main objective be to show how past events caused OP to have a genuine terror of intruders? Since OP could not come up with any verifiable incidents of himself as a crime victim, will Roux make the dearly departed Mama Pistorius the culprit? Sleeping with a gun under her pillow, repeatedly calling ineffectual police about imaginary intruders, with her three frightened children gathered around her listening for telltale sounds in the night?

I cant think of anything else OP can come up with... that's all there is.. unsubstantiated , naturally..

 

[james83]

During Oscar's time as a witness Roux quoted what Oscar's nextdoor neighbour Mr Nhlengethwa heard

He woke upto a bang and phoned security at 3.16(clearly 2nd set of sounds), he heard crying.
So the obvious question once again is did he really sleep through gunshot's and was then woken by a bat hitting or door as he must have for Oscar's story to be true.
Or was he woken by gunshot's as common sense suggest's?.

 

[Trooper]

I suspect that OP's trick cyclist chap will be full of the yarns of Oscars sturm und drang und angst.... acres of it, mountains of it.. Nel will turn him inside out..

 

[james83]

it seems that there are still a few posters who are laboring under the delusion that this trial is taking place somewhere in the USA.. some mythical outpost where the accused is always innocent and all presumption goes against the prosecution..

Couldn't agree more with this, spot on.

 

[Freya1977]

it seems that there are still a few posters who are laboring under the delusion that this trial is taking place somewhere in the USA.. some mythical outpost where the accused is always innocent and all presumption goes against the prosecution..

Haha. Was about to post the same thing.....

 

[Freya1977]

To those who believe Oscar to be innocent (i.e he really thought it was an intruder): I'm keen to hear theories on a few things (genuinely).

1. The metal plate on the bathtub. What could be the cause of this?

2. The jeans on the ground outside the toilet window?

3. OP telling Baba "everything's fine"

4. Why OP excluded such important information in his bail affidavit such as hearing the window, and hearing the door slam, and Reeva speaking to him when he woke up?

I'm genuinely interested in people's theories on these, as I came into this giving OP the benefit of the doubt but have pretty much changed my mind over the course of the trial.

Bumping my own post... MOLLY , I'm interested in your view on these issues?

 

[Trooper]

The thing is, everyone has done it tough in South Africa.. very few have managed to sail thru all of SA's upheavals and injustices, very few have managed to escape hard times... Oscar's asinine reality of merely having been born with no tibula is rather unimportant on the big scale of things....

 

[turaj]

This break is way too long a break to really keep the momentum going...each side will have a challenge to continue...but its not a jury trial and I'm sure judge is reviewing it day by day to be ready for her decision. There will be surprises when they start up again ...at least from defense side...they have this long break to sort out their best chance at avoiding another "Dixon disaster".