Trial Discussion Thread #32

[Karmady]

Agreed - trying to use another case with a complete set of different facts to justify OP's actions is sort of clutching at the straws...

One "clutches at straws" when they are desperately trying to obtain a result or prove a point. I don't think the OP is doing that since I doubt he's got any actual skin in this game. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Steve -- it is Steve, right? wink wink lol

Iirc, the OP was responding to a post that generally questioned the shooting of an intruder four times. The sole point of the OP was to show that it does happen, of course, and happened in that case in particular.

jmo

 

[liesbeth]

I'm not sure about leaving the house. Many tweets said simply he said he didn't know (when asked about Reeva knowing how to activate the alarm by the assessor). This is what was said:

Q: Could Reeva Steenkamp activate and reactivate the alarm?
Pistorius: I’m not sure if she knew how to … but she could if she had the remote.
http://oneherald.com.au/you-intended-to-kill-her/

Obviously, we don't know if she had the remote, or even where it was kept, as that was never asked. It seems clear, to me at least, that she couldn't have controlled the alarm via the panel.

Thank you, BritsKate. Wonder if she used a remote to go to the kitchen to eat?

 

[TorisMom003]

Thank you, BritsKate. Wonder if she used a remote to go to the kitchen to eat?

Personally, I don't think the alarm was ever on that night so no Reeva didn't need the remote to go to the kitchen. I also don't think she was in the kitchen alone.

 

[PPKik]

Unless he was taken up with the thrill of it all. I have sometimes wondered that, if his story is largely true, he may have been so intent on shooting his weapon at the alleged intruder that he abandoned all safety measures including confirming Reeva's location. Obviously he loved firing his gun and hitting a real person would have been the ultimate thrill for him (remember the watermelon comments) and no better opportunity would have presented itself then putting it down to self-defence....dolus directus in mho.

This is very much the way I am beginning to see this shooting. I do think he was reckless and beyond irresponsible, as it's a tremendous responsibility to be a gun owner. I'm not convince that he premeditated this killing yet, but I do agree with you, It seems to me from his previous actions he just had to pull the trigger of any gun he could get his hands on.

Doesn't dolus directus mean his intentions were both foreseen and desired? At this point, I do not think he desired to kill Reeva, herself, rather he desired to shoot something or someone as you said above. Wow.

 

[liesbeth]

Yes he said that.

Just another of his lies. I guess he thought he had to lie about that to ensure that, in his story, there was "no way" she could've gone downstairs in the middle of the night to get something to eat. And he had to say lie about her not eating anything because in his story she was upstairs in bed since 9 or 10. He had to lie about her being in bed in order to hide the truth that they were both up. He had to lie about them both being up because he had to have the room dark. He had to have the room dark in order to not see her........................................................
Etc. etc. etc. etc.......................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

It's no wonder he's getting confused with his lies.

I was thinking about this.

We have an alarm system with censors in every room, as well as beams outside.

Our remotes are just panic buttons. They do not deactivate the alarm. That would defeat the purpose of an alarm because if you only had to press a button to deactivate the alarm any intruder could just grab your remote and press a button.

You have to deactivate the alarm on the wall panel with a code. If you trip the alarm, security will call and ask if you're okay. You have to give a prearranged password and if you give a wrong password they show up with guns.

Can anyone in South Africa help? Is there another alternative alarm system that is deactivated by a remote?

 

[liesbeth]

Female assessor asked OP "Would you please confirm if the deceased in this matter had access to the alarm remote."

OP answered "She did my lady"

Female assessor then asked "And could she activate and deactivate the burglar alarm?"

OP answered "I'm not sure if she knew how to but she would have been able to if she had the remote my lady."

Sounds like double speak to me.

So he says that she could have used the remote to deactivate the alarm. This is what I wanted to know. Thank you!

 

[minor4th]

Exactly! Reeva was alive at the time the window allegedly slid open. SHE WOULD HAVE HEARD THE WINDOW AND INTRUDER! She would have raised the alarm herself - if this happened the way OP says it did.

It was Reeva opening the window - she wouldn't have "heard" the intruder opening the window and alerted OP

 

[minor4th]

No, the jeans inside the house were never proven to be Reeva's. The jeans outside have been ignored so even though they look like women's jeans, we don't know for sure.

I agree with Reeva's mom. Reeva was to slim for the jeans in the bedroom to be hers. As a slim woman myself, I could look at them and tell that there is no way they would fit her without sliding off of her.

MOO

They were all looking at the tag on the jeans, which presumably had a size printed on it. I really think if there were any question at all about whose jeans they were, the prosecution would have pointed that out.

 

[liesbeth]

bbm - I'm trailing again so my apologies if this has been addressed. I was wondering, after brain death, does the heart not require some form of manipulation(cpr, massage, electrical stimulae) to continue beating after the brain no longer gives it instruction, as well as the heart also needing some form of replacement blood/plasma to stay functional if there is large blood loss(either external or internal)?

According to courtroom tweets Dr. Saayman said that her cognitive functions would have been destroyed. Roux said so she wouldn't have been able to scream. Saayman said that screaming is not a cognitive function.

Neither is breathing or a beating heart.

I wish we had access to the report. Because without it we are in the dark.

 

[Karmady]

Is there a rule or an understanding of courtesy that FMs are supposed to sign out when they step away for periods of time? I only ask because I never sign out, I have this as one of the eight pages opened on my iPhone, and if I sign out signing back in again is a pain. I'm lazy! Please let me know. :smile:

Not sure what an FM is, but I don't think it matters. I'm constantly logged in on my phone and simultaneously not logged in on my laptop. Don't know why. I have no idea if I'm "seen" here constantly or sporadically. jmo

 

[Viper]

A

bbm - I'm trailing again so my apologies if this has been addressed. I was wondering, after brain death, does the heart not require some form of manipulation(cpr, massage, electrical stimulae) to continue beating after the brain no longer gives it instruction, as well as the heart also needing some form of replacement blood/plasma to stay functional if there is large blood loss(either external or internal)?

When a person stops breathing the heart will stop beating in 2-5 minutes. Crasshopper has posted great information about how the heart can get oxygen from the blood that was oxygenated before Reeva's breathing stopped and could allow her heart to keep beating for those 2-5 minutes of time. However, in Reeva's case not only did her brain and breathing functions stop, she also had two severed arteries that were bleeding out (gushing) blood with every heartbeat, so she lost a lot of blood very quickly and her heart IMO did not go on beating anywhere near 2 minutes. There are many complicated processes associated with what I just tried to explain in terms that we can all understand, but that is the 10 second version. Hope that helps.

 

[TorisMom003]

It was Reeva opening the window - she wouldn't have "heard" the intruder opening the window and alerted OP

But OP didn't know that, or did he?

I think the point is that in order to believe OP's version one has to suspend all rational thinking where Reeva is concerned. Poor woman never uttered any words or sounds or screams at all that early morning, according to OP.

moo

 

[TorisMom003]

They were all looking at the tag on the jeans, which presumably had a size printed on it. I really think if there were any question at all about whose jeans they were, the prosecution would have pointed that out.

You mean the tag that was so faded you couldn't see any words on it? That tag was also thought to be part of the duvet apparently by the defense.

 

[minor4th]

This is very much the way I am beginning to see this shooting. I do think he was reckless and beyond irresponsible, as it's a tremendous responsibility to be a gun owner. I'm not convince that he premeditated this killing yet, but I do agree with you, It seems to me from his previous actions he just had to pull the trigger of any gun he could get his hands on.

Doesn't dolus directus mean his intentions were both foreseen and desired? At this point, I do not think he desired to kill Reeva, herself, rather he desired to shoot something or someone as you said above. Wow.

Dolus directus means direct intent - a knowing choice to commit the act. That is what Nel is trying to prove. Being reckless and irresponsible is not dolus directus. Being reckless could be dolus eventualis in some circumstances.

Yes, I think it's clear from the evidence that he intended to shoot someone - an intruder according to his account. Despite saying he "didn't want to" or "didn't plan to" or "didn't intend to" - he does acknowledge that he pointed the gun at the sound of what he thought was an intruder coming to attack him, and he pulled the trigger while pointing the gun at the perceived intruder.

But his intent to kill an intruder who he believed was about to harm him is not necessarily even culpable homicide - depends on whether the judge determines that his response to the perceived danger was reasonable or excessive.

 

[liesbeth]

One "clutches at straws" when they are desperately trying to obtain a result or prove a point. I don't think the OP is doing that since I doubt he's got any actual skin in this game. Please correct me if I'm wrong, Steve -- it is Steve, right? wink wink lol

Iirc, the OP was responding to a post that generally questioned the shooting of an intruder four times. The sole point of the OP was to show that it does happen, of course, and happened in that case in particular.

jmo

Yes, that's right, thank you. It was never in doubt that OP fired four times. The only thing in doubt is his reason for firing those shots. At a closed door no less.

 

[minor4th]

You mean the tag that was so faded you couldn't see any words on it? That tag was also thought to be part of the duvet apparently by the defense.

I don't think anyone said it was so faded they couldn't read it.

But seriously, if the jeans were obviously so big they couldn't be Reeva's, do you think the prosecution would just neglect this and proceed on the assumption that they were Reeva's? I guess it's possible that they know the jeans are Oscar's but they're saying they're Reeva's because it fits their theory better - but in that case, you would expect Oscar to mention that those weren't Reeva's jeans.

Either way - I cannot fathom that both sides would accept that those were Reeva's jeans if there was some doubt over that.

 

[nastasya]

Personally, I don't think the alarm was ever on that night so no Reeva didn't need the remote to go to the kitchen. I also don't think she was in the kitchen alone.

OP testified that he turned off the alarm when he opened the front door.

Why?

He had just been calling for help on his balcony moments before.

Was he concerned the alarm would wake his neighbors?

Very thoughtful of him to think of not setting off the alarm while Reeva lay gasping her last breaths in the bathroom upstairs.

 

[TorisMom003]

No, no one said that the tag was so faded that you couldn't read it. My eyes told me this when they showed a close up of the tag in court. Reeva's mom showed her own doubt that they were Reeva's jeans.

 

[liesbeth]

I was interested in the local weather conditions on the night and how they might have affected the neighbours ability to hear the events that took place.

It seems as though wind speed was low (~3.5km/h) but from an easterly direction, which could have carried the sound further, albeit moderately. The high humidity (52%) and warm air temperature could have further increased the distance sound traveled that night, particularly when combined with local terrain and colder night air above the warm houses.

Does anyone know if this was referenced by the PT?

Interesting information. Thank you, jimmy. All I remember is that there was someone from the weather bureau mentioned on the state's witness list. Can't recall any other mention.

 

[nastasya]

But OP didn't know that, or did he?

I think the point is that in order to believe OP's version one has to suspend all rational thinking where Reeva is concerned. Poor woman never uttered any words or sounds or screams at all that early morning, according to OP.

moo

Great idea to look at that night from Reeva's point of view according to OP.

According to OP...

Reeva was watching OP walk around to bring in the fans. She decided to get up to pee.

She grabbed her cell phone. Maybe she grabbed the keys to the toilet door, or maybe OP left the keys on the inside of the toilet all the time. Or maybe they were on the bathroom counter.

She walked into the bathroom and opened the bathroom window, holding her phone in her hand.

She then entered the toilet. She heard OP screaming for somebody to get out of the house and OP telling her to call the police.

She immediately decided to slam the door closed and keep quiet. She locked the door and stood listening as OP approached the door screaming "Get the fvck out of my house! Get the fvck out of my house!"

She stood facing the door, not calling to OP, not attempting to dial the police, doing nothing.

Next thing she knew she heard a gun shot and immediately crumbled to the ground. Next she heard another shot as her arm almost got ripped off, then everything went black.

All that because a minute earlier she decided to get up to pee in the middle of the night.