Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[zwiebel]

I have only just caught up with the whole thread today, and I do feel Roux will be dismayed by the allegations his client asked a woman friend of Reeva's, 'How do you sleep at night?'

If OP admits he said it, Roux will be dismayed because legally it is highly questionable and it is also uncivilised and ill-mannered.

If OP denies he said it, Roux will still be dismayed that OP was so close to Reeva's friend and silly enough to mutter at that moment.

It is never a good idea for any client to cause their attorney this kind of concern, I feel.

I know we all have our opinions of the attorneys in this case, but I do feel that on the whole, both set store by good manners and 'gentlemanly' behaviour.

Ironically, OP's mentioning his 'gentlemanly' holding open of the door for female friends of Reeva's, as a 'defence' of these allegations, and their refusal to acknowledge him.....is far from the action of a gentleman.

I just think this is the last thing a defence attorney would want cropping up in the end stage of a trial where their client is accused of abusive and murderous behavior towards a woman.

 

[patCee]

Thank you kindly, IB.

Her first words, at that time were, 'the fact that we took the handbag...'
Who is we? She and Aimee? CS notes that Carl was there early too,

Again it seems I was right, all these improper actions seem to have come from van Rensburg.

So I think it was all a charade, when an extra watch went missing and all cops and their cars were searched, with extra watch found... Was it in Reeva's bag held/taken by Aimee?

Possible Contents of Reeva's bag that left the crime scene;
5th phone
.38 ammo
Extra watch or two to blame cops for bumbling.
Memory stick?
What else?


As I 've said for a year;
This one runs deep.

What about a gun to go with the .38 ammo. It's no use without the gun is it?
Just speculating, of course but.....how many people keep illegal ammo without the gun? even if the license is in the...ether

 

[Interested Bystander]

Let's assume that OP is found guilty and is sentenced to jail. I'm sure the defence would request an appeal, this happens every time.

1. Between the time of his sentencing and his appeal, would OP be in jail?

2. Is every defendant who is found guilty granted an appeal?

I read yesterday that if the offender was granted Bail before his trial it is usual for him to stay out of prison until the appeal. That probably means OP will be bailed for a long time if there is a guilty verdict.

 

[minor4th]

Still the same simplistic approach Minor ? What if there were two sets of "help! help! help!", one between the two sets of "bangshots" and one after ?

Note that Dr Stipp's failure to hear a second set of "Help, help, help!" after the second set of shots is not testimony that it didn't happen. Let's not turn the absence of positive testimony into negative testimony. Before supposing any witness to be directly lying it is reasonable to make some efforts to reconcile the factual testimony.

Note too that Dr Stipp is a priori the most credible witness we have. He is neither a friend nor a dependent, nor again an enemy, of the accused. He is a professional man. His evidence is clear, firm and doesn't vary. He delivers it without spin. He is clearly right in the face of contrary evidence on one major point, namely that Reeva was already dead when he arrived and had been for some time. The Defence is reduced to pretending that it is a weakness that his wife agrees with him (1+1=0).

In fact, it is quite obvious that what Mrs N heard was the end of the second set of "shot bangs".

Some who witnessed all or part of the second set did not hear screams or calls for help before, nor any of the first set. That's because they were asleep or otherwise distracted.

It is clear that some witnesses are giving their evidence a pro-OP spin ("a broken man" forsooth!), but it is not clear to me that we are getting many outright lies. Taking a syncretic approach we have two sets of "bang shots" and two sets of cries for help and other cries (Afrikaans "skree") in the order bangs - cries -bangs -cries.

There is nothing impossible about that. Personally I think it's what happened.

That's what the evidence is. I guess you could call it simplistic since I'm not adding in additional speculation or coming up with hypothetical fact situations (unsupported by evidence) just to make it fit a preferred outcome.

Know what I mean?

 

[Murphys_Law]

Thank you kindly, IB.

Her first words, at that time were, 'the fact that we took the handbag...'
Who is we? She and Aimee? CS notes that Carl was there early too,

Again it seems I was right, all these improper actions seem to have come from van Rensburg.

So I think it was all a charade, when an extra watch went missing and all cops and their cars were searched, with extra watch found... Was it in Reeva's bag held/taken by Aimee?

Possible Contents of Reeva's bag that left the crime scene;
5th phone
.38 ammo
Extra watch or two to blame cops for bumbling.
Memory stick?
What else?


As I 've said for a year;
This one runs deep.

ETA: WO Botha has indicated that Carl P and/or Oldwage may have taken the .38 ammo.
Like the song, was it "a family affair"?

add to the possible contents ...

a hand gun that uses .38 calibre ammo

 

[lithgow1]

I read yesterday that if the offender was granted Bail before his trial it is usual for him to stay out of prison until the appeal. That probably means OP will be bailed for a long time if there is a guilty verdict.

My understanding was he must re-apply for bail, though maybe that is just a formality? Hope not.

 

[minor4th]

Does that mean the gunshots were definately after the cricket bat then?

No, just the opposite

 

[shane13]

What about a gun to go with the .38 ammo. It's no use without the gun is it?
Just speculating, of course but.....how many people keep illegal ammo without the gun? even if the license is in the...ether

Yes, I wrote that here a week or two ago that since that was not his father's ammo, it likely went with a gun that maybe OP was going to be approved for soon.

But he couldn't wait.

I also wrote then that someone who wants to make sure he would survive would never have just one gun--they do jam.

So yes I am on record believeing he had a 2nd gun there (if not more.)

How big was Reeva's bag?

 

[Val1]

if he has a spare moment, could he also clear up the inside inside out jeans and the outside not inside out jeans. ty.

Another few questions I have are:

Was there evidence that the toilet room window was open, thus possibly the reason why OP inserted the tidbit for RS "to get down" and that bit said almost under his breath "why are you calling the police"?(this of course notwithstanding VR's assertion that there wasn't a window... was he a DT or a PT witness? He certainly seemed to be more willing to believe and put forward OP's version than Botha> Did anyone search VR for the supposedly missing watch and could it have been a bogus claim made up by himself to help OP get away with murder? He did "retire" shortly after, correct?)

Oh and about the bullet/pellet? holes in the bedroom door... could those be responsible for the extra "gunshots" the other witnesses heard?

Re the air rifle, was that a silencer on it or some special enhancement device to make it's pellets hit harder and would the pellets loaded in that rifle have left any physical evidence behind or would they have totally disintegrated upon impact?

Hmm, and just what are the laws in SA regarding tampering with or removing evidence from a crime scene, especially in regards to someone that holds a law degree?

I have more but answers to those would be helpful. :/

 

[Gbtaketwo]

BBM

Not so. It seems clear from the Stipp's testimonies that they heard 6 shots. Therefore we know for certain that despite the balcony windows being open and at least one of them being awake the whole time, they didn't hear correctly that morning.

Missing the sound of one shot is not such a big thing in the scale of things ,witnesses in cases like this regularly misremember the exact number of shots but their testimony on the whole is still the most credible and I doubt very much the judge will discount it for that reason.
In any event whilst thinking about it maybe there were two sets of shots .I would like to know exactly how many bullets were left in the magazine .For all I know he could have shot out of the window to scare Reeva and had the casings removed with the phone that vanished or maybe he attempted to flush them down a toilet ,who knows really .
I will be listening very carefully to the closing arguments before making my mind up on this .

 

[lithgow1]

No, I said I don't trust Van Staden - it's in my posts. I also followed with a comment that I don't trust OP either.

But none of that has anything to do with today's witnesses. So I'm genuinely asking what pool think they lied about.

I don't think they lied if that is what you mean by the last bit - guess 'pool' was a typo? My comment was more about what I perceive as an irony in being quick to defend on one hand and dismiss on the other. No big deal - both 'sides' tend to do it despite our best intentions.

 

[steveml]

From what I recall they both are, there is no conflict. Dr Stipp hears the three bangs after calling 10111 and getting fast rings and considering who to call next. Annette Stipp walks back in at 3:17 on clock radio (less 3/4 mins) when husband couldn't get through on 10111 and hear three more shots. They then call Baba.

Yep, that sounds about right. I just had details that were not specific from Mrs Stipp, i.e she mentioned that they phoned security, and I wasn't sure if she was referring to the previous security company (wrong number) or Baba.

 

[Interested Bystander]

Thank you kindly, IB.

Her first words, at that time were, 'the fact that we took the handbag...'
Who is we? She and Aimee? CS notes that Carl was there early too,

Again it seems I was right, all these improper actions seem to have come from van Rensburg.

So I think it was all a charade, when an extra watch went missing and all cops and their cars were searched, with extra watch found... Was it in Reeva's bag held/taken by Aimee?

Possible Contents of Reeva's bag that left the crime scene;
5th phone
.38 ammo
Extra watch or two to blame cops for bumbling.
Memory stick?
What else?


As I 've said for a year;
This one runs deep.

ETA: WO Botha has indicated that Carl P and/or Oldwage may have taken the .38 ammo.
Like the song, was it "a family affair"?

Piet was there too but as far as I can see there has only been one reference to him.

 

[Gbtaketwo]

add to the possible contents ...

a hand gun that uses .38 calibre ammo

I wondered previously if there was a computer or iPad belonging to Reeva that somehow left the scene but as it has never been discussed during the trial I have tried to believe it must just have been at home.

 

[Interested Bystander]

My understanding was he must re-apply for bail, though maybe that is just a formality? Hope not.

Yes, he probably does but unless he has got himself into trouble in the intervening time, he sure will get it. The problem is the severe overcrowding of SA jails.

 

[minor4th]

BIB Not sure this is correct. I think Dr Stipp first tried to call Silverwoods security but got no answer. He then tried 10111 (SA National Emergency) but couldn't get through. Both Mr and Mrs Stipp then hear three more loud bangs at 03:17 on clock radio (less 3/4 mins). Dr Stipp then calls security (Baba) at 03:15:51 (16 seconds) after which he hears a man shouting help three times. Nthlengethwa's call was after this, at 03:16:36 (44 seconds). He tried at 3:16:13 and couldn't get through.

I was going by the times on the phone records from Security's landline and cell phone.

But you may be right about Dr Stipp - maybe I'm confusing him with Johnson. It was Johnson and Burger who heard the second bangshots after they got off the phone with security (and went back to bed - didn't call back after they heard those). Johnson's phone call was at 3:16 and lasted 58 seconds. I think that's how the 3:17 time was nailed down.

So mrs N heard one bangshot and then help help help and then called security at 3:16 and change (IIRC)

 

[lithgow1]

CNN's Kelly 'I love Oscar' Phelps just said that if today's witnesses are believed over the state's ones then their case for murder is gone, on the grounds they heard no woman screaming. Weren't they all roused by Pistorius' wailing so RS was already dead? OP himself says he screamed and shouted for a length of time and no-one disputes he fired those four bullets into the door so the defence witnesses not hearing any of that doesn't make his testimony go away. Unless he changes it again. If I'm missing something major here please let me know.

 

[Interested Bystander]

CNN's Kelly 'I love Oscar' Phelps just said that if today's witnesses are believed over the state's ones then their case for murder is gone, on the grounds they heard no woman screaming. Weren't they all roused by Pistorius' wailing so RS was already dead? OP himself says he screamed and shouted for a length of time and no-one disputes he fired those four bullets into the door so the defence witnesses not hearing any of that doesn't make his testimony go away. Unless he changes it again. If I'm missing something major here please let me know.

Methinks she has lost the plot.

 

[steveml]

Oh, you conclude that your witness is wrong ? What if the witness is right ? (It has been known to happen!)

My witness?

I'm innocent...my doors and fans are still where they've always been :wink:

 

[Gbtaketwo]

I was going by the times on the phone records from Security's landline and cell phone.

But you may be right about Dr Stipp - maybe I'm confusing him with Johnson. It was Johnson and Burger who heard the second bangshots after they got off the phone with security (and went back to bed - didn't call back after they heard those). Johnson's phone call was at 3:16 and lasted 58 seconds. I think that's how the 3:17 time was nailed down.

So mrs N heard one bangshot and then help help help and then called security at 3:16 and change (IIRC)

I think Mr N did a quick check of the house after hearing the bang which puts the time at right about where Mrs stipp's had testified 3.13 to 3.14 ( her clock was fast ) ? Not sure about the other witnesses .