Trial Discussion Thread #34 - 14.05.06 Day 27

[Paysee]

If you agree that OP is 1.23 metres on his stumps, can you convert this to feet for me please?

Do you know you can just input "1.23m in feet" in your browser's Google search box and it gives the answer?

HTH

 

[Cape Town Crim.]

Good evening. I have just given this link to a user and before I rush off to complete the day's 'electioneering' (Yes, it's general election time as most know).

This link will take you to a PDF of the Criminal Procedure Act.

It might answer a few of your questions on various aspects of the case - start to finish.

http://www.justice.gov.za/legislation/acts/1977-051.pdf

Justice, the South African way.

Sorry for the 200 page link, but it does answer most questions with regard to procedure.

Have a wonderful evening (morning/afternoon) all.

 

[DebinGA]

Although I challenge OP that he never actually went onto the balcony at all that night, not even to yell/scream help. He admitted that his post shooting running around concerning the side of the bed and balcony would be impossible if the room was in fact the way that the first police on the scene saw it (as seen in the photos).
MOO

RBBM
That's so important. Won't Roux have to call a witness to make a plausible case for police tampering? But if he has such an expert, why put Dixon on?

 

[Mr Fossil]

I think he's 5 foot 1 on his stumps. He's lost say 2/3rds of his lower leg.

From Mangena testimony (courtesy of Juror13)

With his prosthetics on from head to floor, he is 184cm.
Without prosthetics on from head to floor, he is 155cm.

His shoulder level with prosthetics is 156cm.
His shoulder level without prosthetics is 123cm.

Elbow level with prosthetics is 126cm.
Elbow level without prosthetics is 96cm.

His arm length stretched out with hand gripped as if holding a gun is 66cm.

The prosthetics themselves are 62cm.

 

[Hope4More]

No, thank YOU!

It's an interesting theory but off the top of my sleepy head I have a couple of 'problems' - do you think this all happened in the dark? Also, what about the time when he says he was standing in front of the toilet door - I can't/don't believe she stood there frozen in fear without saying a word. By your version, had she slipped away without saying anything she would have had no idea about the supposed intruder and would have just heard him screaming so you'd think she'd say or shout something. Then, he would of known it was her so we're back to premeditated.

Sigh. It's hard enough trying to figure out but now you've gone and concocted a cocktail mix of truth and falsehoods. I wish Nel had just hammered a confession out of him or he had the decency to tell the truth and accept the consequences but as we've all seen, supporters and detractors alike, that's just not in his nature.

Yes, in the dark. Now just for one minute imagine that you are Reeva and you are in the bathroom. Suddenly you hear OP crashing down the hallway screaming " get the f out!!!". Really, is your response going to be to come barging out the door to a raging OP? Or to yell to him at all? Either she thought OP was yelling at an intruder somewhere nearby or she thought he had gone truly nuts. Either way her silence is completely rational IMO.

 

[JuneBug67]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply JuneBug. With the final comments, what put me in mind to make them was an earlier post of your's where you'd expressed to an 'enquiring mind' the belief that the 'pro' OP posters were more fair minded than those of us who are 'anti' if you like. I responded to that post (disagreeing to an extent obviously) and never got a reply - which is fair enough of course but that was in my mind when I made those latter comments. Yes there is contradictory evidence and we all try to make it fit 'our' version and much of it can do your head in. I've never made a comment on timing of shots, screams, distances of witnesses etc - it's too complicated so I appreciate those that delve into this and thank those posters who report their findings whichever 'version' they support.

One final thing that I'd stand by in relation to all this is that I still believe that those who believe OP's version tend to avoid the more difficult questions or shrug them off. No doubt they would probably disagree but that's how I perceive it. Actually, one more final thing re empathy - I had some for him at the start - hell I even had sympathy for Colonel Gaddafi when he was pleading for his life - but none any more. Coming from a position of believing him guilty I now find his attempts to get out of responsibility for absolutely anything quite disgusting, especially when the main charge is couched in all this talk of wanting to protect Reeva. But that's just me so thanks again.

Thanks to you as well for the good discussion. I'm wondering if you're thinking of this previous post?

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Oscar Pistorius Defense

If so, a second reading should indicate that I wasn't at all comparing the open mindedness of the general camps here. I was specifically defending the general open mindedness of those who lean to Oscar's version from the very specific statement that there was general and hopeless closed mindedness. Sorry I didn't address your follow up - I've read it again just now.

I can see where the perception of avoidance comes in and I think again that everybody could make that argument because it's human nature to see our own thinking and points as the important ones. For example the evidence that at least one bat strike happened after the shooting - and the fairly straightforward inference that they probably all did - is HUGELY sidestepped and downplayed by those who believe other facts are the ones that tell the real story. Conversely I place very little importance on something like Oscar saying he felt on the floor for Reeva then seeming to switch it to 'walked on the floor'. To you that might be avoiding the difficult things or sidestepping something very important, but that is not the intent. It just genuinely seems far less definitive of events than other things to me. I'm sure the same applies to those who think he's guilty of targeting Reeva.

 

[crasshopper]

As Far As I Know

There's also AFAICT and AFAICR and probably still many others.

(As far as I can tell, As far as I can recall/remember)

Thank you!

 

[steveml]

OP is only 4 feet tall on his stumps? Are you sure? He is supposed to be 6ft 1/2 inch with prosthetics, so he wears 2 feet tall prosthetics? And they are below-knee ones.

And hasn't OP said he has mobility on his stumps?

Yep, my apologies, it was a mistake which was highlighted at the time. I'd taken the height at shoulders and couldn't edit the original post unfortunately.

OP is certainly mobile on his stumps, but he has very little stability, especially once he stops moving. Imagine trying to move if the front half of your feet were missing. This is the difficulty experienced when there isn't a large surface area to evenly balance your weight. The tendency is to sway when you're stationary, and a small force applied to you or from you is likely to send you toppling.

 

[Val1]

BBM: That's a good one, katydid23! Another possibility is, maybe Frank has a severe hearing loss and has hearing aids that he takes out when he goes to bed. Who knows!

I'm betting shane13 has something to say about Frank....

 

[TorisMom003]

RBBM
That's so important. Won't Roux have to call a witness to make a plausible case for police tampering? But if he has such an expert, why put Dixon on?

According to OP's cross with Nel, the defense is going to call witnesses that will testify to the police tampering. According to OP there were hundreds and hundreds of examples in the photos of tampering. I am listening to OP's cross again, as I type, to find out the part about the "open zone" in his security system.

 

[Paysee]

RSBM

Steve, please forgive the snip, but it reminded me of a delicious moment during Nel's cross of OP. Nel accused OP of padding the list of things he supposedly did during the time Reeva had to have slipped away to the bathroom. Immediately, OP spoke up, reminding Nel in a "gotcha" tone that Samantha Taylor testified that it took 4 min. for him to put on his legs but actually he could do it in 30 sec., which, he volunteered, he'd just demonstrated to m'lady during the break. hahahaha

Which day was this? I would like to watch the video.

 

[lithgow1]

Yes, in the dark. Now just for one minute imagine that you are Reeva and you are in the bathroom. Suddenly you hear OP crashing down the hallway screaming " get the f out!!!". Really, is your response going to be to come barging out the door to a raging OP? Or to yell to him at all? Either she thought OP was yelling at an intruder somewhere nearby or she thought he had gone truly nuts. Either way her silence is completely rational IMO.

OK. Just another thought then I'll leave you alone - so by this version, she never screamed so the Stipps misheard and they did in fact hear OP, nor did she utter any words? I can picture her staying in the toilet and not coming out, but if she was the peacemaker type as you say I can't see her not trying to calm him down by speaking to him - whether in pleading, cajoling, stern or whatever tones. It's just another aspect that doesn't ring true to me.

 

[Paysee]

Perhaps I'm missing something here, but I've been puzzling over your comment BBM.

What did these witnesses do that required "guts"? As far as I can make out, they simply attempted an approximate rendering of sounds they heard. What's so brave about that? And why does it make a difference that they are women?

Not everyone can scream on demand. I certainly can't, and most people I know can't.

Quite surprising actually that OP has 2 neighbours that can scream like this.

 

[Nausicaa]

From Mangena testimony (courtesy of Juror13)

With his prosthetics on from head to floor, he is 184cm.
Without prosthetics on from head to floor, he is 155cm.

His shoulder level with prosthetics is 156cm.
His shoulder level without prosthetics is 123cm.

Elbow level with prosthetics is 126cm.
Elbow level without prosthetics is 96cm.

His arm length stretched out with hand gripped as if holding a gun is 66cm.

The prosthetics themselves are 62cm.

Something wrong with that prosthetics figure - once again if his prosthetics are over two feet long he's going to lose his racing medals too.

 

[Val1]

Condolences to you too Really. I lost my father years ago and some days it still feels fresh. Gardening was my therapy...but I can see now WS would have been great

OT but I concur with the above sentiment, I've lost 4 sets of parents(birth, adoptive, foster and in-laws)... WS certainly helps occupy your mind as long as you pick and choose the cases you follow. That's why I tend to follow ones like JA and OP's, the twists and turns of the PT and DT do cause a bit of emotional release that can be very helpful, though I almost had to replace my keyboard during the the JA trial.:/

 

[Viper]

RSBM

Does this mean no ballistics/sound/etc experts? Why is Roux alone in court with no Oldwage, Wolmerans or Van der Westhuizen. They haven't been in court since Monday.

I wonder what's going on?

They are hanging out with Dixon conducting "experiments." Rather busy at the moment trying to make a pig fly and water flow up a mountain. LOL!!!

 

[Emz73]

From Mangena testimony (courtesy of Juror13)

With his prosthetics on from head to floor, he is 184cm.
Without prosthetics on from head to floor, he is 155cm.

His shoulder level with prosthetics is 156cm.
His shoulder level without prosthetics is 123cm.

Elbow level with prosthetics is 126cm.
Elbow level without prosthetics is 96cm.

His arm length stretched out with hand gripped as if holding a gun is 66cm.

The prosthetics themselves are 62cm.

We still work in feet/inches and stones here. Am I abit wrong?
:blushing:

 

[Val1]

Something wrong with that prosthetics figure - once again if his prosthetics are over two feet long he's going to lose his racing medals too.

Perhaps his racing blades are not as tall?

 

[TorisMom003]

Something wrong with that prosthetics figure - once again if his prosthetics are over two feet long he's going to lose his racing medals too.

Remember that his prosthetics go up much higher on his legs. They go up to his knees.

links for photos:
https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/24082011/2/photo/24082011024215.html
http://totallycoolpix.com/2012/08/coolest-sports-pix-of-2012-week-31/

 

[Mr Fossil]

Something wrong with that prosthetics figure - once again if his prosthetics are over two feet long he's going to lose his racing medals too.

It does look like it but his stumps fit inside the prosthetics so you can't simply add this height to his height without prosthetics to get his height with prosthetics.