Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

[Carmelita]

Well I have taken the time to listen to quite a bit of Dr. Voster’s testimony and I am impressed with Nel’s verbal theatrics if nothing else. And doubly impressed with Dr. Voster.

All of Dr. Voster testimony has nothing to do with Oscars ability to distinguish right from wrong, the good doctor has repeatedly said that Osacr was capable of appreciating the wrongness of murdering Reeva in cold blood the docotor is simply saying that Oscar had diminished capacity as to properly interpreting and acting on the noise he heard in the bathroom due to his physical disability and his psychiatric condition which she has diagnosed as Generalized Anxiety disorder.

She did at one time get confuzzled by Nel’s continuously telling her that she must be wrong and she gave one sloppy answer about “right and wrong.”

The judge is good to take a doctor of psychiatry’s opinion as to the difference between a mental illness and a psychiatric disorder rather than Nel’s interpretation of the DSM V and the judge has said as much. The doctor said many times that the psychiatric factor she is positing along with Oscars’ disability specifically denied that Oscar had the incapacity to act in accordance with knowing right from wrong.


A psychiatric disorder diagnosis can explain why a person’s ability to act may be different than a person without a particular diagnosis and in Oscars case disability may have diminished culpability, which is simply what I have been saying all along.

I also thing her testimony as to Oscar's ability to take flight is much diminished compared to an able bodied persons ability to take flight.

This is what I have been saying all along in a nut shell. Though I never correctly labeled Oscar with GDA I just referred to him as emotionally unstable.

I can’t imagine that Oscar will be sectioned and from her responses I can’t imagine the judge believes so either.

Now I have a noon appointment so good day to all.

 

[Hatfield]

From the link, quote:

<Snipped> ..."Overall, Mr Pistorius appears to be a mistrustful and guarded person," Vorster said.

<Snipped>

Nel asked her whether someone who was suffering from an anxiety disorder of the kind she had diagnosed in Pistorius, and who had access to guns, would be a danger to society. Vorster said such a person would indeed be a danger.


Wow! OP just might have his bail revoked after his psychiatric evaluation is completed. :what:

The description of OP as "mistrustful" is valid. I wonder how Reeva was able to tolerate him for three months...

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/12/oscar-pistorius-psychiatric-observation-prosecutor

Good point about Reeva. Maybe she did finally hit her breaking point with him and maybe she was trying to break up with him. That could have been what set OP into a rage.

It could have simply been Reeva coming to the conclusion that she can no longer be with him and she may have said something so simple like "I think it maybe time for us to part our ways". And with OP feeling rejected he went bizerk.

 

[Giles]

I thought the Psychiatrist was clear and concise in her testimony. She was willing to concede and seemed self assured and knowledgeable of her field.

On a couple of occasions she mentioned that OP stated he feels guilty for what he's done. I wanted Nel to ask her why someone who feels guilty wouldn't plead guilty.

It was such an interesting day, watching the drama unfold. I'm really looking forward to tomorrow.

 

[james83]

Great article from S.A journalist Barry Bateman

http://ewn.co.za/2014/05/12/OPINION-Pistoriuss-experts-what-have-they-been-doing

 

[sicknote]

Well I have taken the time to listen to quite a bit of Dr. Voster’s testimony and I am impressed with Nel’s verbal theatrics if nothing else. And doubly impressed with Dr. Voster.

All of Dr. Voster testimony has nothing to do with Oscars ability to distinguish right from wrong, the good doctor has repeatedly said that Osacr was capable of appreciating the wrongness of murdering Reeva in cold blood the docotor is simply saying that Oscar had diminished capacity as to properly interpreting and acting on the noise he heard in the bathroom due to his physical disability and his psychiatric condition which she has diagnosed as Generalized Anxiety disorder.

She did at one time get confuzzled by Nel’s continuously telling her that she must be wrong and she gave one sloppy answer about “right and wrong.”

The judge is good to take a doctor of psychiatry’s opinion as to the difference between a mental illness and a psychiatric disorder rather than Nel’s interpretation of the DSM V and the judge has said as much. The doctor said many times that the psychiatric factor she is positing along with Oscars’ disability specifically denied that Oscar had the incapacity to act in accordance with knowing right from wrong.


A psychiatric disorder diagnosis can explain why a person’s ability to act may be different than a person without a particular diagnosis and in Oscars case disability may have diminished culpability, which is simply what I have been saying all along.

I also thing her testimony as to Oscar's ability to take flight is much diminished compared to an able bodied persons ability to take flight.

This is what I have been saying all along in a nut shell. Though I never correctly labeled Oscar with GDA I just referred to him as emotionally unstable.

I can’t imagine that Oscar will be sectioned and from her responses I can’t imagine the judge believes so either.

Now I have a noon appointment so good day to all.

From what I make of it if Nels argument stands the Judge doesn't have an option. The court "shall" is what Nel read from the book.

 

[TorisMom003]

Carice testified on May 5th, yes? And Aimee was absent from court that day, yes? And the psychiatrist today testified that she began her interviews on May 5th of family and friends of OP, yes? It seems to me that Aimee's absense on May 5th may have been twofold. Didn't want to be in court when Carice outed her as the one that walked away from the house with Reeva's purse, and she was busy making exscuses for OP to the psychiatrist.

MOO

 

[Giles]

Great article from S.A journalist Barry Bateman

http://ewn.co.za/2014/05/12/OPINION-Pistoriuss-experts-what-have-they-been-doing

Great article. Thanks for posting.

 

[Giles]

From what I make of it if Nels argument stands the Judge doesn't have an option. The court "shall" is what Nel read from the book.

I tend to agree with Carmelita. I'm not sure that Nel's application will be accepted. I have been rewatching the testimony and arguments and some of the ways Nel connects pieces of evidence is fairly 'loose' IMO.

There are a lot of technical definitions - mental disorders vs mental defects vs psychiatric diagnoses.

Whatever unfolds tomorrow, if will be interesting to watch.

 

[TorisMom003]

Didn't someone say that Oldwage was in court today but was in the second row behind where he and Roux usually sit? If so, can someone please tell me when it was that he came into court please. I have watched the first witnesses testimony from this morning and the man sitting beside the blonde woman for the defense is not Oldwage. Thank you.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 12 May 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

 

[soozieqtips]

So if he had some kind of disorder that made him dangerous around guns - how come he was allowed to have them in the first place? Why isn't a psychiatric assessment carried out on anyone who applies for a licence? Is anyone allowed to have a gun in SA no matter what their mental state?

 

[Fairynuff]

Well I have taken the time to listen to quite a bit of Dr. Voster’s testimony and I am impressed with Nel’s verbal theatrics if nothing else. And doubly impressed with Dr. Voster.

All of Dr. Voster testimony has nothing to do with Oscars ability to distinguish right from wrong, the good doctor has repeatedly said that Osacr was capable of appreciating the wrongness of murdering Reeva in cold blood the docotor is simply saying that Oscar had diminished capacity as to properly interpreting and acting on the noise he heard in the bathroom due to his physical disability and his psychiatric condition which she has diagnosed as Generalized Anxiety disorder.

She did at one time get confuzzled by Nel’s continuously telling her that she must be wrong and she gave one sloppy answer about “right and wrong.”

The judge is good to take a doctor of psychiatry’s opinion as to the difference between a mental illness and a psychiatric disorder rather than Nel’s interpretation of the DSM V and the judge has said as much. The doctor said many times that the psychiatric factor she is positing along with Oscars’ disability specifically denied that Oscar had the incapacity to act in accordance with knowing right from wrong.


A psychiatric disorder diagnosis can explain why a person’s ability to act may be different than a person without a particular diagnosis and in Oscars case disability may have diminished culpability, which is simply what I have been saying all along.

I also thing her testimony as to Oscar's ability to take flight is much diminished compared to an able bodied persons ability to take flight.

This is what I have been saying all along in a nut shell. Though I never correctly labeled Oscar with GDA I just referred to him as emotionally unstable.

I can’t imagine that Oscar will be sectioned and from her responses I can’t imagine the judge believes so either.

Now I have a noon appointment so good day to all.

goodness i must be watching a different trial to you. let me just check my channel on my telly. :what:

 

[james83]

Didn't someone say that Oldwage was in court today but was in the second row behind where he and Roux usually sit? If so, can someone please tell me when it was that he came into court please. I have watched the first witnesses testimony from this morning and the man sitting beside the blonde woman for the defense is not Oldwage. Thank you.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 12 May 2014, Session 1 - YouTube

He was definitely there but i don't think he turned up till after lunch.

 

[04009margaret]

I share your concerns. I dont blame Nel for this at all since he was obligated to some extent to try to get to the bottom of what the witness was really trying to claim. I blame the defense for bringing this witness in.

But now that we are heading for a sidetrack, I do worry about the outcome of the possibles that could happen from this.

Here in the US, there are examples of "sick minded" people that are now walking the streets after shooting someone.

I believe the shooter of Ronald Regan is out now....John Hinkley Junior.

And for those that dont get out they are in a perpetuated state of being in treatment like Chapman that shot John Lennon. Its probably a much better life for them to be in treatment and declared "mentally ill" than to be in general population with no such result.

With OP, I am afraid the defense will try to use this to their advantage now that they may see this as a "way out" somehow.

There was a legal expert on the oscar radio that stated that Nel had to go this route, if he didn't he explained that Roux could use the diminished responsibility argument in his closing.

 

[Fairynuff]

There was a legal expert on the oscar radio that stated that Nel had to go this route, if he didn't he explained that Roux could use the diminished responsibility argument in his closing.

i also think this was a smart move for when he wants to appeal. i think this is also why roux is fighting it as vehemently as he did today in court.

 

[Giles]

http://abcnews.go.com/International...bservation-anxiety-disorder/story?id=23677670

It says here that this is the Defense's final witness taking the stand. Has this been confirmed by anyone else?

 

[Cherwell]

Slightly O/T but interesting: Prof. Vorster testified for Jub Jub as well. Pic of her here.

"Forensic psychiatrist professor Merryll Vorster is seen with Rudi Krause, legal representative of convicted murderer Molemo "Jub Jub" Maarohanye at the Protea Magistrate's Court in Soweto during sentencing procedures on Wednesday, 5 December 2012. Vorster told the court that in her opinion, Maarohanye had "no anti-social behaviour tendencies". "He is mildly depressed... has no ongoing behaviour of substance abuse, but admitted that he regularly took ecstasy." On October 16, the court found Maarohanye and his co-accused Themba Tshabalala guilty on four counts of murder and two of attempted murder, of using drugs, racing on a public road, and driving under the influence of drugs. "

http://www.sapa.co.za/preview.cfm?ID=22493

 

[04009margaret]

So if he had some kind of disorder that made him dangerous around guns - how come he was allowed to have them in the first place? Why isn't a psychiatric assessment carried out on anyone who applies for a licence? Is anyone allowed to have a gun in SA no matter what their mental state?

More to the point, why is he allowed to live with family? A family that is on record as having 55+ guns in their possession.

 

[jassy writer]

Guess they all have anxiety disorder!

 

[james83]

Well I have taken the time to listen to quite a bit of Dr. Voster’s testimony and I am impressed with Nel’s verbal theatrics if nothing else. And doubly impressed with Dr. Voster.

All of Dr. Voster testimony has nothing to do with Oscars ability to distinguish right from wrong, the good doctor has repeatedly said that Osacr was capable of appreciating the wrongness of murdering Reeva in cold blood the docotor is simply saying that Oscar had diminished capacity as to properly interpreting and acting on the noise he heard in the bathroom due to his physical disability and his psychiatric condition which she has diagnosed as Generalized Anxiety disorder.

She did at one time get confuzzled by Nel’s continuously telling her that she must be wrong and she gave one sloppy answer about “right and wrong.”

The judge is good to take a doctor of psychiatry’s opinion as to the difference between a mental illness and a psychiatric disorder rather than Nel’s interpretation of the DSM V and the judge has said as much. The doctor said many times that the psychiatric factor she is positing along with Oscars’ disability specifically denied that Oscar had the incapacity to act in accordance with knowing right from wrong.


A psychiatric disorder diagnosis can explain why a person’s ability to act may be different than a person without a particular diagnosis and in Oscars case disability may have diminished culpability, which is simply what I have been saying all along.

I also thing her testimony as to Oscar's ability to take flight is much diminished compared to an able bodied persons ability to take flight.

This is what I have been saying all along in a nut shell. Though I never correctly labeled Oscar with GDA I just referred to him as emotionally unstable.

I can’t imagine that Oscar will be sectioned and from her responses I can’t imagine the judge believes so either.

Now I have a noon appointment so good day to all.

Wasn't she great?, i especially loved the part where she confirmed Oscar had committed Dolus Eventualis, thanks Doc.

 

[TorisMom003]

In listening to Vorster talking about OP being asked to remove his prosthetics and that he became embaressed, I suppose that when it isn't for a camera crew that is interviewing him for an article about his track skills then he becomes embaressed about removing his prosthetics? I also have to question if OP was simply faking the "limited mobility" that he displayed to her while on his stumps. Would she really know the difference between faking his ease of getting around while on his stumps and being genuine about it? After all, he managed to shoot 4 bullets into the toilet, with three of them hitting Reeva, while he was supposedly on his stumps.

MOO