Trial Discussion Thread #37 - 14.05.12 Day 30

[kaos]

No Voster is speaking clinically about delusions which must cannot be physically true. Someone can have the misconception that their husband is cheating on them every night with a different woman and they may be wrong or right as it is a possibility. So it is not in the world of psychiatry considered delusional.

Now on the other hand if someone thinks their husband is having relations with a gerbil on the moon every night and sending her video tape of the event, that is delusional.

It is within the laws of physics that the police are out to get Oscar so it is not considered a delusion.

It's not within the laws of physics that the gun went off in the Tasha without him pulling the trigger, so how is that one explained?

 

[acejase]

He was definitely there but i don't think he turned up till after lunch.

maybe he was outside with 1 of them advertising sandwich boards with the words "witnesses required apply within"

 

[DebinGA]

Wollie handed Nel his report as he walked by him to be sworn in. Ditto Dr. Vorster and her report. In what legal universe does that seem fair?

 

[Carmelita]

nel asked vorster based on her evidence, is OP a danger? to which she replied "yes". she also stated clearly that he has GAD and because of this so called mental disorder, he is a danger. this led nel to apply the relevant sections of the act with immediate affect. whether or not it will applied by the judge will only be seen tomorrow.

I watched and listened to all of Dr. Voster's testimony and I did not hear her say that Oscar is a "danger" I will listen again though as I find this testimony, Nel, Roux and the judges interactions fascinating.

A link with a time to watch would be appreciated if you have it. Thank you.

I have maintained all along that if Oscar gets a slap on the wrist part of that slap will be that he must not handle a gun ever again.

 

[TorisMom003]

Oldwage showed up in court about 10 minutes after the lunch break.

 

[Carmelita]

In other words you caught that also, but as it not something that's positive towards Oscar your willing to discard it?.

no i am willing to discard it as I don't think Oscar said it, I think it was an inference and I think Roux will clarify it.

 

[Carmelita]

It's not within the laws of physics that the gun went off in the Tasha without him pulling the trigger, so how is that one explained?

I can't, Oscar will not admit to pulling the trigger which he obviously did, I have already stated this.

 

[Karmady]

Here you go, I think Dr. Voster comes in about an hour after video one starts :seeya:.

Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 12 May 2014, Session 1 - YouTube


Oscar Pistorius Trial: Monday 12 May 2014, Session 2 - YouTube

IMO Nel is willfully ignorant on this point.

Many thanks to you, too, Carmelita

 

[sleuth-d-]

It's not a coincidence she was brought in so late. Oscar's defence rests on his state of mind and he was a terrible witness to prove it himself. I think they were left with being forced to bolster anxiety/vulnerability as a result.

I'm not sure she really cares as long as she gets paid but the fact they brought her in so late was really a disservice to her as well.
It afforded her so little time - ironic that she so quickly came up with a dx that could have potentially helped the defence (until examined under scrutiny). Because of her testimony, I have a very strong suspicion much of her opinion is based on what she was told, and she took that at face value, rather than any testing. That weakens her diagnosis a fair bit. Unless I missed her conducting tests or she hasn't testified about them yet?

JMO

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

re: little time, vorster was seeing op on the 7th for the second time, and still had to write up her report. i don't think it is a coincidence that the 5th and 6th were the days when roux was 'short' of witnesses. and then came the almost pointless social worker, who only revealed herself on the 2nd [coincidentally the same day as the first op psych interview]. the reason roux was on a go slow - to leave vorster a chance to finish the report.

 

[Magdalyn]

No Voster is speaking clinically about delusions which must cannot be physically true. Someone can have the misconception that their husband is cheating on them every night with a different woman and they may be wrong or right as it is a possibility. So it is not in the world of psychiatry considered delusional.

Now on the other hand if someone thinks their husband is having relations with a gerbil on the moon every night and sending her video tape of the event, that is delusional.

It is within the laws of physics that the police are out to get Oscar so it is not considered a delusion.

Bib and underlined by me:

Respectfully, that is a common misconception, and not the psychiatric definition of delusional.

Nonbizarre refers to the fact that this type of delusion is about situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, being loved, having an infection, and being deceived by one's spouse.

Delusional disorder is on a spectrum between more severe psychosis and overvalued ideas. Bizarre delusions represent the manifestations of more severe types of psychotic illnesses (eg, schizophrenia) and "are clearly implausible, not understandable, and not derived from ordinary life experiences".[1]

On the other end of the spectrum, making a distinction between a delusion and an overvalued idea is important, the latter representing an unreasonable belief that is not firmly held.[1] Additionally, personal beliefs should be evaluated with great respect to complexity of cultural and religious differences: some cultures have widely accepted beliefs that may be considered delusional in other cultures.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/292991-overview

Delusional disorder, previously called paranoid disorder, is a type of serious mental illness called a "psychosis" in which a person cannot tell what is real from what is imagined. The main feature of this disorder is the presence of delusions, which are unshakable beliefs in something untrue. People with delusional disorder experience non-bizarre delusions, which involve situations that could occur in real life, such as being followed, poisoned, deceived, conspired against, or loved from a distance. These delusions usually involve the misinterpretation of perceptions or experiences. In reality, however, the situations are either not true at all or highly exaggerated.

http://www.webmd.com/schizophrenia/guide/delusional-disorder

 

[soozieqtips]

When Vorster was debating with Nel about the level of OP's GAD, and if it was severe or not, it was said that unless OP had delusions of people out to get him (paraphrasing) then she would not consider it (his GAD) to be of such where he would need a referral. Wouldn't the fact that OP has claimed while one the stand that not only are the SA police out to get him (my moving things around before taking photos to "frame him", stealing his watch, etc), but also some witnesses that testified against him are out to get him and willing to lie on the stand as well, be enough to say that OP is having said delusions?

MOO

And at Tasha's, even the gun was out to get him when it had the nerve to discharge itself.

 

[kaos]

I can't, Oscar will not admit to pulling the trigger which he obviously did, I have already stated this.

Which makes him either a liar or delusional.

 

[G.bng]

One thing I have to wonder, considering the limited and recent interviews, is whether she really even had the opportunity to consider malingering.

I really can't wait for the State's psych expert.

Please pardon errors as posted via Tapatalk with a less than stellar user.

Is it a done deal Masipa is going to agree allow the application, because listening to the exchange again she sounds not at all convinced.

 

[Tink]

No Voster is speaking clinically about delusions which must cannot be physically true. Someone can have the misconception that their husband is cheating on them every night with a different woman and they may be wrong or right as it is a possibility. So it is not in the world of psychiatry considered delusional.

Now on the other hand if someone thinks their husband is having relations with a gerbil on the moon every night and sending her video tape of the event, that is delusional.

It is within the laws of physics that the police are out to get Oscar so it is not considered a delusion.

Your definition of a delusion is incorrect. It is quite possible to have delusions that are "within the laws of physics" - they are delusional simply because they are not true. For example, I could have a delusion that Johnny Depp comes to visit me every afternoon and we drink tea in my backyard. That is presumably within the laws of physics, but it is not at all true (sadly) and so it is a delusion.

If Oscar believes that the police are out to get him, it is possible that he has some evidence that suggests this. In that case, he could be mistaken - he could have drawn incorrect conclusions from the evidence. On the other hand, if he has no evidence or reasoning behind his conclusion, it is possible that this could be a delusion. You would need to know more about his thinking on this.

Tink

 

[soozieqtips]

Re the psych evaluation, isn't the main thing not what OP's mental condition is now, but what it was the evening/week leading up to the fatal night? Of course, he's depressed now that he's lost his status, his brand, his livelihood, his former courtiers, and a good chunk of his money, etc., but what does that have to do with his killing Reeva in Feb./13? And the real prospect of a SA prison must fill him with anxiety/terror, but so what?

Nothing! The psychiatrist wasn't evaluating him before he killed Reeva. She's evaluating him over a year later, when I have no doubt at all that he's depressed at the thought of :jail: - and probably anxious and nervous etc etc. But that's post murder, so I fail to see how this is relevant to his state of mind before the murder.

 

[MissJ]

Was that a county hospital? The one county hospital prison ward that I visited had fencing behind the entry door, a guarded Sally Port, and all of the prisoners were shackled to the metal bed frame. I'll never forget the first time I walked in to it, they had the one TV tuned to the show Cops and the song "Bad boys whatch gonna do" was playing! LOL!!!

Thanks for sharing that information. But at your facility they were all previously awaiting trial in confinement at a jail it seems, CMIIW. OP will be in for quite a shock if he is stuck in a hospital prison ward. Is that where you are saying that he is going, a prison ward? That's worse than what I initially envisioned. I don't know why I envisioned him going to just the normal psychiatric unit.

No this is a state facility with a unit for the criminally insane. They are not shackled as it is a hospital and it is against the law in a hospital especially a psych hospital. There are armed guards and high fences but they walk around as they please on the unit, can watch TV, read, talk to others, have snacks and three catered meals a day. They even have a night where they can order out if they have their own money. The place is clean and they share with one or two room mates (and their own bathroom in their room) but the beds are comfortable and they have clean linens every day if they want. They must bathe every other day or when told by staff. It is gorgeous in comparison to the jails (or prisons) I have seen. Most of the people who are sent for a 30 day eval are in jail because they cannot afford bail. But it is to their benefit to go along with it even if they were on bail. The judge who does most of the murder trials almost always believes the Psychiatric evaluation is legit. If the defense lawyer wants to ask for a ruling by the judge or judges (no jury) they almost always get NGRI if the Psychiatric team believes they are in fact not guilty by reason of insanity. They can only be held til the psychiatric team says they are no longer a threat to society (so to speak) and a group home etc. has been found for them as a trial to live elsewhere. It is so nice most of them don't want to leave. They have visitors just like any hospital. They have holiday meals and parties. No I don't suppose OP would like it there because he wouldn't be able to fool anyone. :moo:

 

[MissJ]

Also the 30 day eval is this long because it is easy to fool someone for 2=3 days but not so much for the 30 days.

 

[Nausicaa]

[snipped]

IMO Nel is willfully ignorant on this point.

Carmelita, I never thought I'd be tempted to call you uncharitable, but...

 

[DebinGA]

Wollie admitted to Nel today that he'd never talked to OP about where in the bathroom he shot, how fast or in what way he shot, or how he was holding the gun. Wouldn't an innocent defendant be eager to explain all that in order to help his case? And wouldn't his gun expert be eager to hear all about the innocent defendant's version in order to make the best presentation of it in court?

 

[TorisMom003]

I watched and listened to all of Dr. Voster's testimony and I did not hear her say that Oscar is a "danger" I will listen again though as I find this testimony, Nel, Roux and the judges interactions fascinating.

A link with a time to watch would be appreciated if you have it. Thank you.

I have maintained all along that if Oscar gets a slap on the wrist part of that slap will be that he must not handle a gun ever again.

@7:18

Nel~ You've also, and that I've picked up on, you also said he's suffering from a general anxiety disorder and that is worsening.

Vorster~ Yes I believe it is increasing in intensity.

Nel~ Yes. Then you said for sentencing purposes and I just, you know, when you mentioned that, for somebody that suffering from general anxiety disorder and would possess guns that would make him a dangerous person.

Vorster~ Yes.

Nel~ Yes. And having done matters before I'm sure that you agree that um that a person suffering from general anxiety disorder would be a danger to society if he has access to a gun.

Vorster~ Yes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=sMi1epmqkko#t=438