Trial Discussion Thread #39 - 14.05.14 Day 32

[ColonelMustard]

Outpatient. Never gonna happen.

Nel says briskly and dismissively, "We will investigate it." They won't.


Roux knows it won't happen. It's a crumb he's offerred to OP and his family that incrementally lets them down in two steps, not one, also serving to deflect the negativity the family feels toward and/or projects onto him in this mess.

Nel will never agree to outpatient.

1. You seriously can't do what needs to be done for this on an outpatient basis.
2. There does exist, on a lesser level, something distinctly personal in this between Nel and OP. Viper captured it perfectly on 05-12-2014, 03:45 PM

Roux was quite shocked when Mr. Nel threw down the gauntlet on this! Talk about a deer staring in to the headlights! And as you catch up on watching the trial, please take note that Mr. Nel turns while he is addressing Judge Masipa and directs his voice and his eyes right upon OP! He did that many times today! It was as if he was telling OP, "Mr. Pistorius I will not allow you the luxury of asserting diminished capacity. I have your whiny little *advertiser censored** and it is time that you paid the price for what you have done."


Nel will settle for no less than maximum humiliation.

The administrative details, I believe, are about arranging a bed.

 

[BritsKate]

I have to say that cuts in funding hit mental health services very hard. In our area of the UK, mental health nurses now visit patients in their homes rather than the patients having to attend a facility. There are horror stories of nurses being attacked while on the job. Supposedly, our government tells us this is caring within the community - a way of getting people to front line services. But every assessment, a nurse is walking into a patient's home to unknown risks too.

Strangely though, the NHS has sold off many of its properties, closed facilities communities have fought to keep open, and rent other buildings with a hefty price tag.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-25230298

**Sorry for the kinda O/T - it just didn't surprise me they'd look to outpatient to avoid a 6 month wait, which also doesn't surprise me, because our own mental health services are under such severe strain too. JMO**

 

[JimCricket]

an outpatient? that is very annoying. he is just going to postpone this a bit. And still be out free on bail. ffs

The wait for a bed in a mental institution is 6-12 months at least.
OP is not a paranoid schizophrenic or suffering psychotic episodes, so this is quite a normal arrangement.

The institution is also a prison type environment (you are locked up), and she does not see this as "fair" at the moment. His punishment should follow his conviction and sentence.

 

[lithgow1]

And he is not going to be dragged off screaming... that would not be justice either!

Roux calm and collected today.

I don't see how his bail being revoked (the Dr said he was dangerous) and him being put into custody for the rest of the trial undermines 'justice'. It would seem to be the usual course of events. I understand you would not have liked my comment avout him being dragged off screaming but it had nothing to do with justice being served - just a personal wish for less kid gloves treatment.

If I thought he had a genuine mental disorder that influenced him at the time of the offence or one which had developed over the past year then I too would not want to see him 'dragged off' but I don't think he has or had so he should be treated the same as any other accused. Did you read the article that was posted here regarding the other double amputee languishing in jail awaiting trial? The black guy with no rich family behind him? Now to me, that's injustice when his situation is compared to Pistorius'.

 

[bessie]

That doodle has something slightly reminiscent of a gun trigger in it too....

Now that you mention it...

 

[asanque]

*swearing* on this side of the world
He's just scored himself a bloody 30 day holiday!

Don't forget his legal fees will continue to rack up during this period :magnet:$$$$$$$

 

[44ALLAN]

Can we read into this that he is likely to be punished at the conclusion of the Trial?

That's exactly what I though too !

 

[beach]

If they diagnose something more severe, would it affect potential sentencing?

Yes, I think any mental illness dx is to be considered during the sentencing phase.

 

[Nausicaa]

Whether OP is an inpatient or an outpatient is a clinical decision, which should ultimately be made by the assessment team psychiatrist.

Yes indeed. One of the main purposes of this evaluation is to eliminate potential grounds for appeal. But unless the evaluation is thorough and conducted by the book, it won't have that effect as it will remain possible to claim that OP was judged and sentenced without adequate psychiatric evaluation.

I hope Masipa gets this message because judges don't like being overturned on appeal. I suppose that between now and Tuesday week counsel will be talking to the team that will do the evaluation about what is required.

 

[zwiebel]

Does any know where I could find a transcript of the judges remarks today? I would love to revisit it and digest it further.

There is an outline here, but I can't find a transcript. There is a SA site that posts almost entire transcripts, but I can't remember what it's called.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/may/14/oscar-pistorius-trial-judge-mental-health-live

 

[Emz73]

How interesting. It's a doodle. He looks like he might have some artistic talent.

But look at the rigidly controlled framing of it.....perfect straight lines. That's unusual, I think.

ETA: On all but one side. The 'free' side has something sharpish and ugly, breaking out...

I read when he around 17 he used to draw and paint in his spare time.

 

[Trooper]

now this puts Vorsters evidence and diagnosis on the line. whatever she came up with ,that's whats being challenged.. anxiety disorder.. fine, we'll have it checked by a panel of Psyches and others.. hypervigilance?? okioki. we will check that too, by a a panel of psyches.. none of this cosy schoozing in a private room just you and Oscar... ..

this was the only way Nel could get a grip on Oscars psyche.. he got bail , he only ever made a statement to GET bail, the police and prosecutors have had to work his story backwards and forwards...

but then. he does the dimmest thing, he brings in a forensic psychiatrist.. 2 sessions. gets the family on board.. they get the story straight..

I bet the family wont be anywhere near these psyche panels that Oscar has to front up to, and its a pound to a penny they may not find anything of the sort of an anxiety disorder, OR paranoia OR hypervigilance.. THEY might find that Oscar is just a gun happy snarky guy..

 

[MsMarple]

Well, I was wrong. I just don't think this should be done on an outpatient basis, though. OP gets all the breaks.

MOO

I'll donate my cyber winnings to Zwiebel to help pay for some of those tasty treats. (I laid my bet last night on the application being granted and only LaLaw took me up on it.)

I'm still catching up so apologies if it's been brought up - did the judge give the outpatient option to OP based on Dr. V's report versus her testimony? It seems like OP shouldn't be loose in public if he's potentially dangerous. I doubt she included some of the more damaging comments she made during cross in her written report

I guess this means he won't take up a bed - good news for some poor "average" South African whose bail has been revoked since the wait time will be shorter. Sheesh!

 

[Trooper]

being an outpatient hasn't been decided yet. Masipa merely mentioned it as a possibility and possibly preferred but it isn't compulsory.. if he ISNT an outpatient he loses his bail!!..

 

[jay-jay]

The wait for a bed in a mental institution is 6-12 months at least.
OP is not a paranoid schizophrenic or suffering psychotic episodes, so this is quite a normal arrangement.

The institution is also a prison type environment (you are locked up), and she does not see this as "fair" at the moment. His punishment should follow his conviction and sentence.

But he is lucky to even be out on bail at the moment, most other people awaiting trial for something as serious as murder have to do so in prison .. they aren't all just allowed to await their trial in the coseyness of a relative's house like OP has been doing.

 

[james83]

An accused has rights until they are convicted BARD. This is not meant to be a punishment which it would be if he were interned in a very unpleasant place and then found guilty and was sent to prison. And what if it is found he has GAD to the extent it affected his perception of wrongfulness at the time and therefore cannot be held criminally responsible being locked into a place he did not want to be would be a punishment without his having any criminal liability.

The same happens in the UK. Despite being sectioned, well and truly sectioned which OP is not being, Shrien Dewani has been allowed to go in and out of the mental institution where he was confined and spend large periods at home.

The only thing Oscar has is awfulwitness syndrome.
I mean think about it, why did they only send him to this Dr on May 2nd 2014?, it really isn't rocket science, this whole nonsense was in readiness for appeal purposes
They thought they could just slip this in at the last minute under Nel's nose, they should have known better than that.

 

[christee]

Emily Smith ‏@EmilySmithCNN 1h
Ever wonder about the notes #OscarPistorius takes during the #OscarTrial? Take a look - pic.twitter.com/QaJ3g9kGyT

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BnlEQEZIAAAP_q7.jpg

WTH...guess he plans to sell them.

ETA:

 

[kaos]

now this puts Vorsters evidence and diagnosis on the line. whatever she came up with ,that's whats being challenged.. anxiety disorder.. fine, we'll have it checked by a panel of Psyches and others.. hypervigilance?? okioki. we will check that too, by a a panel of psyches.. none of this cosy schoozing in a private room just you and Oscar... ..

this was the only way Nel could get a grip on Oscars psyche.. he got bail , he only every made a statement to GET bail, the police and prosecutors have had to work his story backwards and forwards...

but then. he does the dimmest thing, he brings in a forensic psychiatrist.. 2 sessions. gets the family on board.. they get the story straight..

I bet the family wont be anywhere near these psyche panels that Oscar has to front up to, and its a pound to a penny they may not find anything of the sort of an anxiety disorder, OR paranoia OR hypervigilance.. THEY might find that Oscar is just a gun happy snarky guy..

I was just about to ask whether it could mean Dr Vorster's testimony is thrown out. I think Judge Masipa also implied she wasn't happy about the length shortness of time it took to come up with her diagnosis.

 

[lithgow1]

couple more Dadic tweets:

The evaluation will be against Vorster, saying OP is fine and does not have GAD. This terminates OP's entire version (incl putative).Win win

David Dadic @DavidDadic · 1m
Either he will be evaluated the same as Vorster, where he will still be convicted but maya get a lighter sentence (case law dictates) or ..

 

[supernovaNic]

being an outpatient hasn't been decided yet. Masipa merely mentioned it as a possibility and possibly preferred but it isn't compulsory.. if he ISNT an outpatient he loses his bail!!..

But the judge likes the idea of "outpatient" as I understood it. Would it be wise for Nel to get on the bad side of the judge and go for inpatient. (sorry half dead asleep. must hit browser close button to get out of here and turn off computer... but i so procrastinate and just say you can read one more post... and then........)